I want to apologize if I get too technical sometimes, thats not my intent. My intent on this thread was to discuss how sometimes men including me, had in the past demonstrated outward anti-gay feelings to use it as a deflection shield. Sort of like wonderwomans guantlets( ironic huh?)

That was the main point, using some recent published info to corroborate, so just not about me spouting off.

Although it was a side note cuz of the timing in the news, It became partly about the 'retraction' of the EX-GAY stuff by its very author, a study used and held up as proof that bs works. I agree with Ed , the above article says for a retraction the author needs to submit in writing to the publishing journal, he has now submitted a letter to Mr. Zucker, managing editor.

Spitzer apologized to the gay community basically because he said he now sees the overwhelming critiques of his work were correct. He is not himself gay, he has no gay agenda or investment - in fact it takes the opposite to admit your mistakes.
1. There were no controls - thats just bad science and nothing more than enecdotal evidence( saying its so - no proof)

2. The persons reporting change could not be substantiated as it was a self report. 93% had attended this "therapy" for religious reasons, ( so likely saying it didnt work would not get you back in the front door - "IT'S A ...!"). 66% had been referred by ex-gay ministries.

3. IT MAKES NO SENSE cuz the original paper was trying to answer what do men undergoing this therapy say about how their orientation changes. NOT NOT NOT can their orientation change?, he admits there was no way to know. Somehow it got subverted to there is proof you can change orientation.
Having said that the article I quoted on HOMOPHOBIA used 4 different studies with more sofisticated techniques and found that these men who were often most homophobic had sexual attraction towards men.

So I am saying that it is time to put all this EX-GAY stuff away. It is not same old same old or "I have heard it before". THIS IS HUGE. NO MORE CO_OPTING SCIENCE for a particular bent.

There is no way to make the gay go away. You can not pray it, wish it, hope it, flagelate, drink, drug or otherwise stop it. You can only chose to either act on it or not. That's where the convenient " gay lifestyle " argument comes in. I have never heard of "hetersexual lifestyle", its your choice to be str8(you know. when you sign the agreement). Both are bullshit terms. So yes lets put it to rest, cuz finally despite any rational mind already knowing the argument was bs. It's time for bed. The barbarians are tired.

Ps please feel free Ed to post something about how what happens outside the womb can affect orientation. I happen to agree with that. But on this subject there is no equivocation, EX-GAY, like poor old "Poly" the bird in an old Monty Python skit is STONE DEAD.


Glad it helped Jeff


The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011