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#77282 - 08/25/04 11:27 AM Separation of hate...
Ivanhoe Offline

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Jim brought up a subject in another area asking what others thought of the phrase, "Hate the Sin Love the sinner."
I guess I've always thought of that phrase as a form of abuse. I didn't know that at the time, but I always thought that it was used by folks who smugly thought that they had a corner on the Christian market.
You know the ones who use the bible as a six shooter and miss the message completely. Kinda gives new meaning to the old phrase, "couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if they tried."
I went through some church war that taught me a lesson or two. Back in the dark ages, oh, 1974, 5 and 6, a branch of the Lutheran Church was going through an upheaval. The president of the largest Lutheran seminary in the world was accused of heresy by teaching tolerance and understanding in the Christian community. Some of the old church fathers labeled the seminary president as a heretic and fired him. 99% of the seminarians and an overwhelming number of the faculty left with him in protest.
Protestant, is that where that came from?
Anyway, the argument was on and before the "fight" was over, father and sons, families, congregations and others were divided over the issues of whether or not women were going to be ordained, people would share the bread and wine, and tolerance would be taught of others and of their faiths. Folks wanted it to be much more complicated than that, and the arguments went on for years. The positive from all of this came with the establishment of a new association of Lutherans...over five million of them. The other group? Well, they're still loving the sinner and hating the sin.
I guess my point is that we can debate the bible for ever but if we don't have love, we have nothing.
That controversy still rages with those old Lutherans and their churches lack ministers to pastor them.
If we don't have love for one another, here, we could be missing the mark, too.

You guys are the best, donít let anyone tell you any differently,


"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

#77283 - 08/25/04 06:29 PM Re: Separation of hate...
SAR Offline
Administrator Emeritus

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 3310
Loc: USA

I always look forward to reading your posts about your church. You speak with knowledge and a deep love that literally takes the breath out of me. It must be so incredible and comforting to have such faith and trust in something. \:\)

#77284 - 08/25/04 07:54 PM Re: Separation of hate...
Brayton Offline

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
I only reply here because this whole 'hate this, hate that' thing was taken out of the Gay Survivor forum where it means something very different and I am compelled to follow it. I think that its actually a political slogan, not something spriritual. But, if you want to put it out here, I guess its okay with me.

I'm not certain but it sounds like you think the phrase may have come out of the Missouri Synod schism of the '70s.

Hate and loathing of gay people by Christians (I know, I know--not all Christians) can be traced back well before Luther got into it to Paul in the New Testament. That was, obviously, after Jesus died and could no longer defend his teachings.

Since then, what he taught has been put through and through the meat grinder of human self-interest so often that junk like 'hate the sin, love the sinner,' can now pass for an important part of a belief system.

If I felt that someone was spewing garbage in my name, I would either change my name or make sure they stopped doing it.

Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

#77285 - 08/25/04 08:54 PM Re: Separation of hate...
reality2k4 Offline

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6845
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...

hate is a word that eludes me, I know what it means, and I know what it stands for, and it stands for many of the evils' in this World.

We see hate, and hatred displayed to us every day, it is drummed into us, some even use it as a weapon, either mentally, or physically, it causes huge rifts in societies, and there are millions of victims of hate, throughout the globe.

We need tolerance and understanding, it is one of the natural things in life, these are things, my father always taught me, and he made me stick by them, but he didn't have to, they were part of the intincts I was born with, the instincts that we are all born with, sadly society takes these things away.

I have forgiven many things in my life, much as most of us here have done, but when I can forgive myself, for being totally innocent, then I will be free. When I can finally say to myself, my inner hate has gone, the hate of myself, and the hate, of being such a wimp, and mulling over something, that should be totally left in the past, then I can realise myself, it is not far away.

I say I never use the word, hate, I don,t, it's just something I victimised myself with for so long.

Imagine what the World would be like, if we really loved, the way God meant it to be? This World would be a far safer place, but there are loads of good folk around us, people who really care, and not just for themselves.

I hope the meaning of love they neighbour, can make a come back.

take care


Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

#77286 - 08/27/04 09:47 AM Re: Separation of hate...
Leosha Offline

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here

I have hate. I fully admit that. As for 'hate the sin, love the sinner', I think that would require a better man then me. I hate what my father did to my family. I hate what my coach did to me, and others. I hate what has been done to other people here by other persons.

I know there are people capable of still having love, forgiveness, and other good things within them, even for the evil people who put us here. I am just not one of them.

YOU, David, are a very special and gentle, loving man. One I am very grateful to know.


Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

#77288 - 08/29/04 08:36 AM Re: Separation of hate...
Ivanhoe Offline

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 1907
Marc and all,

Love builds up and judgement tears down...I like that. When you're ready, I want to hear what Claudia said.


"No soul is desolate as long as there is a human being for whom it can feel trust and reverence."
George Eliot

#77289 - 09/04/04 09:21 PM Re: Separation of hate...
Kenn Offline

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 146
Loc: Toronto, Canada
When I first saw the heading for this thread I thought it was a play on words of the "separation of church and state" phrase - and perhaps it was.

I feel blessed to be part of a faith community (Trinity-St. Paul's United Church) within a national church (The United Church of Canada) that has spent many years painfully debating - often in public - the issue of ordaining gay men and lesbians as ministers, the acceptance of gays and lesbians as members and, more recently, the church-sanctioned marriage of gays and lesbians.

Despite its name the "United Church" (the name comes from its founding, in the 1920s, as an amalgamation of several smaller denominations) is not of one mind on these issues.

"Affirming" congregations, and some others who haven't gone so far as to declare themselves as such, openly embrace all of the persons, and combinations of people, I mentioned above.

Trinity-St. Paul's (or TSP as we call it) is just one such congregation.

I was brought up in a small United Church congregation in Quebec - so small that it has since closed.

When I left home for college I was led to experience - and all definitions of 'experience' apply - a fundamentalist church. This was at a time when my sexual orientation was causing me some confusion, to put it mildly :rolleyes:

Offended once too often I found my way to the Metropolitan Community Church of Toronto where, it must be said, I had a wonderful church-going, community-building experience over several years. These were also the years I was dealing with becoming HIV-positive and, later, developing AIDS.

When a group of "seekers" split away from the congregation I followed them, and remained with them for a year or two.

Then, five years ago last Pentecost Sunday, I joined TSP having found it in the second week of my hunt for a United Church to call home again.

It has been home ever since. It is a downtown church with all of the characteristics, and characters, one finds downtown. I absolutely love it.

There I am openly gay, openly living with AIDS, openly a former drug and alcohol abuser, and - ever so slowly - becoming open about my sexual abuse past.

Like I said, as I began this, I am blessed.

The congregation encourages questions, big questions - about the Divine, faith, life, you name it and it openly welcomes people of other faiths (we have adherents who are Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and Aboriginal).

As lonely as it can get for me, as a survivor, I never need to be alone if I can make the effort to be among true friends.

I experience no less right here at MS.


"This above all; to thine own self be true."

William Shakespeare, Hamlet

#77290 - 09/06/04 04:46 PM Re: Separation of hate...
crisispoint Offline

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
It's a curious thing. As a Catholic and a Christian, I'm called upon to forgive people who sin against me or hurt me. And most of the times, I do.

But there are things beyond forgiveness, and not just done to me, but to others.

Hate? Yep, I have it. I'm not charitable enough to love my enemy. My enemy is my enemy, and I shall strike down upon him/her with a furious anger and great vengeance. Usually, it has nothing to do what's been inflicted on me personally, but those I love and care about.

Hurt me all you want, well, yeah, I can take it. That whole self-worth thing. But hurt my friends, family, people I love, well, I'll do what I can to disembowel you BEFORE I cut you off at the knees.

Some here, they make me feel unworthy and want to change. I am, slowly. But I still follow the Marshal Law principle: They say I don't pray for my enemies, the "bad guys." They're wrong. I do. I pray they go to Hell.

Don't hate me or think I'm a bad person for this. even God condemns. But I'm trying to change this part of myself.

It's hard some days, though.

Peace and love,


There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies


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