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#72075 - 11/19/03 05:52 PM Re: gay christian
Bigmac Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 4
I am a pastor in a United Methodist Church that was sexually abused by my older brother(s) and an uncle for a number of years. Because of that abuse I still struggle with homosexual feelings and attractions toward men and boys.
I am also a product of the 60's where the montra was; "if it feels good do it."
I am now a 55 year old man who has struggled with the different issues surrounding homosexuality all of my life and I only know one thing.
If God and the Bible says that a certain behavior or attitude is tabo-it is always for my own good and for the good of society.
I have found out the hard way over and over again that I am a fallen creature living in a fallen world and but for the love, the forgiveness, the salvation of Christ I would still be condoning my self destructive behaviors, be they, homosexuality, greed, pride or all the other affliction that the evil of this world has cursed me with.
Believe me I hurt every moment of every day for those who are engaged in self destructive behaviors, because I often find myself engaged in them as well.

#72076 - 11/19/03 07:15 PM Re: gay christian
Brayton Offline

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Well abcd, that's interesting, isn't it?


Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

#72077 - 11/19/03 07:26 PM Re: gay christian
Brayton Offline

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis

Your de>
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

#72078 - 11/19/03 07:47 PM Re: gay christian
abcd Offline

Registered: 10/20/00
Posts: 189
Loc: GA
That's just it BigMac (btw, I noticed you're VERY new here--you've had 4 posts total?), the Bible is not at all clear on that. In fact, I argue that the Bible says the opposite (just as in fact, it really says the opposite about slavery--no, they SHOULD NOT obey their masters despite fundamentalist translations). Here are some interesting sermons from mainstream organizations (Catholic and Lutheran)...I have removed their names for the sake of not targeting anyone... (and trust me, there are many more who believe in this analysis rather than the traditional close-mindedness...just recently, I read an article by a United Methodist minister reacting POSITIVELY to gay marriage despite what the church officially says).

We're at a time of great change amongst churches, I just ask for your intense prayer and understanding to give others the benefit of the doubt. This is not a trivial matter and any judgmentality you impose on others is SEVERELY damaging...I also ask that if you have something to personally say to ME regarding this matter, please do it via private e-mail. Far be it from me to censure you, but I am a little concerned that posting on the "Gay" forum regarding this matter in such a negative way (as in God wants us to be this way) is a bit inappropriate, especially in light of the matters that are already before us (namely the abuse). Thank you, and God Bless.

I do not mean to hammer this whole thing, but below is just an interesting article that I read of a homily delivered by a priest in Canada (I do not know if you have been following any of it, but the Canadians have recently allowed gay marriages and prime ministers have been embroiled in a controversy…in the meantime, the Vatican released a statement to the world [but obviously also directed at Canadian politicians] urging them to oppose equal rights for gays). It is interesting in its stance and honest in its views. Indeed, it reminds me of a specific Confirmation class—what I learned of the Church not being just the hierarchy, but also of the lay people. It is a comforting sermon in light of the recent proclamations which have painted an out-of-touch picture of the RC hierarchy (their stance on gay adoptions especially flies on the face of statements already made by the elite medical associations—not just in Canada as mentioned below—but in the US including the pediatrics, psychiatric, and family physician associations against discrimination of gay parents…). Still, such statements as below (made by local pastors) convince me that the RC hierarchy will eventually change its stance (albeit slowly).


A call for intense dialogue: Catholics need to do their own research and search their consciences before reaching conclusions, pastor says


Reverend Scott Gale is pastor of St. Andrew's Roman Catholic Church in Thunder Bay (in Canada). This is his homily of last Sunday which first ran in The Chronicle-Journal. Reprinted with permission.

In the present ongoing discussion about same-sex marriages, the one thing that seems to be missing within the Roman Catholic Church and within our country, is a dialogue among people who respect one another.

And for me, as your pastor, it is much easier to remain silent, than to take up the challenge to use my own mind, and to listen to my own conscience, about how to deal with this very contentious issue, and to share some thoughts with you today.

I do not mean to be disrespectful towards the Pope, or towards our Canadian Bishops, but I am concerned that we are being treated like "parrots" rather than being recognized for the important role that we have as members of the Body of Christ of being pastors, parishioners, and yes, some are even parliamentarians. What we need is dialogue, not dictates.

As your pastor, I try, through my homilies, to challenge myself, and you, to lead Christian lives and to follow Gospel values. Can homilies not also be challenging to those in leadership positions as well?

In my homily today, I am not trying to tell anyone how they should vote or act. I am merely presenting other perspectives to consider as you form your own conscience on this important issue.

Certainly the recent Vatican statement must be considered, but it must also be studied to see if it reflects the lived experiences of the People of God, and whether it has been truly received by them.

We are in the midst of great social change regarding our understanding of homosexuality, spurred on by scientific studies about human sexuality. What is needed now is an intense dialogue among people of goodwill that will incorporate this new understanding of sexuality into our theology.

In past centuries, theologians and the Church used to consider women as being less human than men because of ignorance about reproduction. No one would dare suggest such a concept now.

For centuries the Church tolerated slavery, and, once again, no one would dare suggest such a concept now.

The Vatican's harsh language in the document Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons is very hurtful to our gay and lesbian relatives and friends, and their families. I can only hope that a serious dialogue will take place between gay and lesbian Catholics and Church leaders, in order that the lived, loving experiences of gays and lesbians can be truly listened to, and taken into account in a re-examination of the Church's attitudes regarding homosexuality and those persons with a homosexual orientation.

But there are two issues here.

There is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church's leadership on homosexuality, and there is the question of civil recognition of same-sex marriages. With regard to the legal recognition of homosexual unions, the recent Vatican document states that "... the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favour of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral."

And yet, how do we reconcile this statement with what the Second Vatican Council teaches about the dignity of one's own moral conscience?

For in the Pastoral constitution On The Church In The Modern World it states: "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, tells him inwardly at the right moment: do this, shun that.

"For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. His dignity lies in observing this law and by it he will be judged. His conscience is man's most secret core, and his sanctuary .... Through loyalty to conscience, Christians are joined to other men in the search for truth and for the right solution to so many moral problems which arise both in the life of individuals and from social relationships."

In Vatican II's Document of Religious Liberty, it further states: "The search for truth ... must be carried out in a manner that is appropriate to the dignity of the human person and his social nature, namely, by free enquiry with the help of teaching or instruction, communication and dialogue.

"It is by these means that men share with each other the truth they have discovered, or think they have discovered, in such a way that they help one another in the search for truth ... It is through his conscience that man sees and recognizes the demands of the divine law. He is bound to follow this conscience faithfully in all his activity so that he may come to God, who is his last end. Therefore he must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience."

I believe that Prime Minister Jean Chrtien and Paul Martin are right in stating that, although they are Roman Catholics, in acting as Members of Parliament, they must take into account a much wider range of factors than the Vatican's directive on same-sex marriage.

How politicians should deal with conflict between their own personal, moral or religious beliefs and their obligations as parliamentarians is very complex.

All politicians, not just religious ones, are open to such conflicts, because all have we hope moral beliefs. As is required, they must act in good conscience and with integrity. Sometimes that can require having the courage to accept either political damage or the wrath of their religious community.

If Parliament and the Supreme Court agree to law reforms that will give the country same-sex marriage, it will be only one more example of the state respecting the individual's freedom to choose without impinging on the freedom of churches or other faith communities to do their best to persuade people to behave otherwise.

This should not offend churches and other faith communities. For any church or citizen group is free to teach Canadians that homosexual behaviour is still wrong, and same-sex marriage is a sin, if that is what they really believe.

They just won't have the arm of the law reinforcing their beliefs. Such legislation will hardly amount to a social revolution. It will be more of an evolution.

If we accept sexual diversity as believing Christians, it does not necessarily mean that we approve it, like it, or understand it. It does mean that we can live with it because it is in everyone's interests, even when that can mean rethinking what many Christians see as the sacrament of marriage.

Marriage has traditionally been the precious way that a man and a woman have shared themselves with one another, in joys and in sorrows, in bearing one another up, from youth to old age. Gays and lesbians are telling us that is precisely what they want to do too.

Their way of doing it may not be your particular choice, but courts in Ontario and Quebec have ruled that denying same-sex couples the right to marry contravenes the spirit if not the explicit letter, of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

And let us not be distracted by the argument about the primacy of Parliament over the courts, or about free votes in the House of Commons, or about the 1999 Commons resolution on the definition of marriage.

The Charter is the law of our land, and both the courts and Parliament must follow it. For extending marriage rights to gay and lesbian couples is fundamentally a matter of law, not religion. Church groups will still be free to bless only those marriages that their religious denomination recognizes.

The Vatican directive also takes aim at gay parents being able to adopt children. It says: "As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these (homosexual) unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood.

"Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such union would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development."

This position has been condemned by the Canadian Psychological Association as repeating misconceptions about same-sex parents that are scientifically unfounded, since psychosocial research into lesbian and gay parenting indicates that there is no basis in the scientific literature for this perception.

One might ask whether the Vatican opposes adoption by single parents, since those children would have only a mother or father.

In many cases, gay and lesbian couples have adopted children who are often considered not adoptable because of age, race or special needs. Are these children better off in revolving foster homes and orphanages? For who is truly acting in the best interests of the children? The gay and lesbian couples who open their homes to those vulnerable children or the Church hierarchy that has a terrible track record of protecting children?

Before you sign any petitions or write any letters, I urge you to consider all the information at your disposal.

Talk to your friends, talk to someone who is gay or lesbian, read the Vatican document (off the Vatican Web site), read Bishop Colli's letter at the doors of the church this weekend, read the newspapers, and do your own research. Draw your own prayerful conclusions and then act as your conscience dictates.

“Do Not Call Anyone Unclean” Acts 10:9-16,28. Preached at a Lutheran Church

The Story in Acts that forms the text for this sermon is the conversion of Cornelius. He is the first Gentile or non-Jew who becomes a believer in Jesus, a disciple. A Roman soldier, a centurion (10:1) or what we would call an officer, the text claims that he feared God. But he had not become a Jew. This man has a vision in which an angel told him to send for Peter. Meanwhile, God is also communicating with Peter himself: vv. 9-16:
About noon the next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the
city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something
to eat; and while it was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw the heaven
opened and something like a large sheet coming down, being lowered to the
ground by four corners. In it were all kinds of four-footed creatures and reptiles and birds of the air. Then Peter hear a voice saying, “Get up, Peter; kill and eat.
But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is profane
or unclean.” The voice said to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you must not call profane.” This happened three times, and the thing was suddenly taken up to heaven.

The vision offers unclean animals, things that were not kosher to eat. The vision is at times referred to under “creepies and crawlies.” Biblical texts have explicitly forbidden certain foods. Leviticus 11: among unclean animals are camels and pigs, anything moving on its belly (snakes), and in the water: anything that does not have fins and scales (shrimp, scallops). All winged insects are “detestable to you.” Touching such things defiles a person.

Peter is told to kill and eat three times. But not even a divine voice can get him to do it.
For Peter these animals are disgusting. Only the French would eat such stuff!
“I would not touch that with a ten-foot pole.” It’s enough to make a man gag. (For me: raw oysters). Note that this involves not just a biblical prohibition but a visceral reaction: disgusting!

As Christians we are not obligated by Ancient Israel’s food laws. Indeed, we have left behind other biblical texts that advocate: holy warfare, slavery, the second-rank status of women (no women could testify in court, study>

#72079 - 11/19/03 08:20 PM Re: gay christian
MrDon Offline

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
I bristle at the fact that people think being gay is some type of behavior or a condition and not who we are. That just gets me to the bone!

I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I am trying to respect this so I probably will refrain from reading any more of this post as it will just get me to upset.


In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

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#72080 - 11/19/03 08:39 PM Re: gay christian
Brayton Offline

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis

I agree but am too fascinated to pull out.

I think that friction is inevitable in a discussion of "gay christianity."

I like abcd's posts as they provide an informed, optimistic and forward-looking point of view.

I am sorry to find myself being judgemental about ideas I don't agree with but this all strikes close the bone not only in terms of the degradation and humiliation of have felt at the hands of the church (some Christians) but also because, in my case, religion was a supporting player in the abuse I experienced.

Christianity is just one big bundle of triggers for me no matter how reasonable and open I try to be. None of all those fine religious people have ever asked my forgiveness. So much for their humility and piety.


Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

#72081 - 11/20/03 12:35 AM Re: gay christian
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Hey Don,

Thanks for expressing so well what was bothering me. Gee, for some reason it really disturbs me to hear the validity or worthiness of my being being debated by any group, especially a hostile one!

The worth and value of my being is not up for debate. Being homosexual is how God made me.

Your fellow survivor, struggling to be tolerant,

"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

#72082 - 11/20/03 01:17 AM Re: gay christian
BT Offline

Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 388
Loc: Chicago IL
I have been reading this thread with a lot of emotion, both sadness and happiness. I do not know why I have vacilated between those two, I think because my own views on my faith are in such a state of the unknown right now.

I think this may be long because there are several things I want to say.

Until recently (the last couple of years) a good part of my thoughts revolved around my sexual identity.

My religious upbringing taught me that if I was gay it was straight to hell for me.

My therapist I had for several years told me my "homosexual tendancies" was because of my sexual abuse.

So I lived a life believing that being gay was wrong, that I had to overcome it, and it was because I was abused. Not only did I believe this, I lived it. I was "religious" to the extreme. I got "healed, exorsized, etc..."

I lived with guilt.

As I got older I worried less and less about being gay and even eventually married.

I married, not because I wanted to be straight, or because of any of the bad reasons. I fell in love and it happened to be with a women. totaly unintended by the way. I told her all about me and she is still sticking by me to this day.

But I still lived with guilt.

Finally the guilt caught up. Depression took over. Suicide began to make sense.

Killing my perps seemed logical. I wondered why I waited so long. It was almost all over when I finally broke and got help.

I could no longer escape to religion.

Now I don't know if there is a God. I do not understand how he would let people hurt thier kids. And if there is a God I am not sure I like him very much.

I have decided that labels suck. Gay, Straight, Black, White, We are just people.

I don't consider myself gay or straight or white or anything now. If you ask, I would answer, HUMAN. I am human. that is as far as it goes.

I have learned that any religion that tells someone that the way they are is so bad that if they do not become someone else they are going to hell, is not much of a religion. Either the religion is wrong and is all fucked up, or it is just a made up fantasy. My problem, right now I don't know which it is. Whether man has made up religion to answer those unknowns or man has taken god and religion and just messed the whole thing up.

It is something I want an answer to, but I don't know how to figure it out.

I know that not only are there a lot of gay christians, but there are an awful lot of straight acting gay christians. good folks, believing all the shit and living miserable lives because they think they have to or they are going to hell.

And a religion that does that to peaple is really messed up. And in all fairness it is not just christianity, but I guess most religions condemn gays.

they say it is a choice. Choice my ass, you are who you are, human I say. who you love is who you love.

I Love my wife and want to spend the rest of my life with her. I cannot totaly explain it. I could act like I was all straight and shit and never looked at another guy, but I don't lie to myself anymore and that is just not who I am. I did fall in love with a women, but does that make me straight?

Religion would asume so, but they would be wrong.

I am faithful to my wife and do not plan on haveing a sexual relationship with anyone other than her male or female. Does that make me straight. No, it means I love someone and am committed to them.

If something happened to my wife would I remarry. Maybe, but it might be to a man in MS.

Go Mass.!!!!!Supreme court.

Would that make me gay?

Religion would say so, society would say so, but I would still be the same person. Having the same feelings, emotions, etc... a human.

Did sexual abuse make me the way I am. Who the fuck knows. but if it did and God would condemn me to hell because of what was done to me what kind of God is that.

And If I was made that way from conception, what kind of God would punish me for the way he made me.

All I know for sure is I did not choose shit. I love who I love. I feel what I feel. I choose how to act and what to do and who to be with etc... but not the way I am, i did not choose that. Of that I am sure. Cause I know if I were choosing things would be a hell of a lot different.

I know I am rambling and I hope I am not pissing anyone off. I just have a lot of feelings about this topic and I decided to get some of them out. there is more but i have to go for a bit, maybe I can continue later.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is not my job to change their mind." Dali Lama

#72083 - 11/20/03 06:32 AM Re: gay christian
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Thanks, Brent, for your beautiful words.

Your brother,

"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

#72084 - 11/20/03 07:39 AM Re: gay christian
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
Brent - Ramble?? You've got to be kidding!! You said awhole life full in your "rambling". You made very good sense and I hope a lot of the guys who are struggling read your post!!

My two cents? God is real! I trust Him and depend on His love and grace to get this guy through life. Sounds crazy with all the pain and suffering I've gone through and all the crap I see day in and day out...but, you know, I trust His understanding and love for me anyway!

I really respect and applaud what you say about gay christians!!!


If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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