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#56422 - 06/12/05 10:31 PM
extension of prevention CAUTION!!!! (long also)
**CAUTION MAY CONTAIN GRAPHIC TRIGGERS**
I wanted to share some PM's that SAR & I have been having as they seem to have some very important points in them. After my posting the other day about my feelings after reading the Prevention Articles, SAR was kind enough to add a "TRIGGER WARNING" -
something that I normally do just due to the fact that I do tend to cuss rather freely. AND - included that I post publicly as much as possible as I feel personally that if I can share and it helps ONE person or Couple in some way, then the pain and suffering I and Hubby go thru does make the pain "worth it" so that others may gain besides us.
*** following is our PM' with "some" editing to protect privacy of survivors***
"SAR says" -Ken Singer has been on vacation but I believe he's due back soon-- if you have specific questions about the articles he might be able to answer them for you or at least tell you who could.
I might be assuming too much here, so I apologize if this is out of line-- but with all the worthlessness you're describing, and the fact that you tend to play it better safe than sorry with the trigger warnings, Sammy, I wonder if some part of you didn't leave the trigger out of this one because you felt it would be right for you to be punished or attacked here?
" Sammy says" -SAR,
I was just in here searching for a way to send you a PM to THANK YOU for adding the trigger warning. Normally I think I am pretty good about putting in the Trigger warnings.
"I might be assuming too much here, so I apologize if this is out of line-- but with all the worthlessness you're describing, and the fact that you tend to play it better safe than sorry with the trigger warnings, Sammy, I wonder if some part of you didn't leave the trigger out of this one because you felt it would be right for you to be punished or attacked here?" -
Your question is a good one, and the other day SAR when someone posted about placing the homemade signs about the molester in his neighborhood. I went into the prevention area and started reading.
I knew I needed to wait to respond if I was going to respond to that post at all as I was hit with a flood of emotions ranging all over the place. I also wanted to wait due to the age of the poster -- I think it was a newbie & very young. I know I have to give a whole lot of room for the anger to come out from the survivors, they have a HUGE right to feel the anger. I still feel anger at not only my perps but even MORE at my husbands perp.
I do want to start a discussion about HOW this distiction of being a convicted sex offender effects/affects the persons life. BUT I dont want it to be misunderstood into being excuses.
I also want to THank YOU from the very core of my being for stepping into the posting when some really mean things were said about Hubby. I appreciated that so much SAR I cried ... I knew that it was best that any type of explanation did not come from ME, as it could easily be construed as excuse making. So Dear One THANK YOU yet again.
I did not know Ken is on vacation (not that I should) but I do think you are right he would be best to help the discussion along so that it does not get "out of hand".
I feel so lonely SAR, I see so many many positive changes in Hubby yet now I am afraid to share them on the board. This puts me in a position of feeling so torn between 2 ends as I feel that most of what I share should be as public as possible so that others can read and learn as much as they can and maybe give hope to others who may be in the same situation.
YET, the other end is that I don't want to have it come out as he has "healed" his sex offending. Does that make any sense to you?
God SAR am I looking to be punished? Yesterday I felt this incredible urge to "fight back" after reading that post, but I knew better than to do so. BUT there was so much I feel needed to be explained about how someone who has offended, or even has an addiction NEEDS support NOT to reoffend.
Yes, SAR some parts of me feel I deserve to be punished for my choices. Not for returning to work on healing our relationship, but punished because when he was showing so many flags that he was dangerously close to doing "something wrong" when I was even screaming fighting with him to NOT act like he was 20 something, I couldnt take it anymore and then left all of them to their own devices. To "live like hippies" as I call it, NOTHING was normal in the house behaviors anymore. THe house rules were so broken down and NOT being followed, and I could see it and no one NO ONE was listening to me. I chose to leave and take that damn "vacation" and while I was gone that was when NO ONE was watching or protecting them from themselves or others. I DO feel responsible. I feel as if I had been here there would NEVER have been an opportunity for things to get so out of control.
Yet, inside of me I know I am not responsible for HIS actions and behaviors. I am very torn in my feelings about my actions and what I did and did not do. I KNOW that I cannot MAKE him or either of my daughters seek & actively take a role in healing the tragedy that occurred.
I also know this SAR, had that tragedy NOT occurred he NEVER would have gotten help for his sex addiction nor had made strides to heal his own sexual abuse.
I asked him a few nights ago if he had always remembered ALL of the abuse or if during our separation when I began dating & he ended up cracking up & going to the crayola wing if those were "new memories" for him. He shared that they were NEW memories. So, yet again I feel torn about that particular event. Had I NOT been dating would he have never recovered the awful memory of that bastard holdign a knife to his throat and the other details? OR would they have remained buried?
Hubby has never accused me of "causing his problems", he has tho told me that I "own" my fair share of the dysfunction. OH GOD, I DO KNOW THAT...
AND I am scared shitless SAR of how if he ever gets to a point in his healing that he will directly hold my feet to the fire. Ask ME the hard questions and 1) I may not remember the particular stuff that has added to his pain 2) That I will not be able to be strong enough to not "run" and face my own responsibility in this marriage mess.
My girlfriend said once to me and it has stuck "How in the hell does one make amends for 20 yrs of fuck ups if they didn't know they were fucking up along the way?" --
I am frightened to death that he will choose to leave me during the time we start the process of working directly on healing the pain from all of the years of hurt, and especially the "fright night" as I call it.
SAR, last night he had to present his school "team work" and he was dressed to the nines. My God he looked so handsome and his changes just beaming out of him. I told him this so many times. Not just to boost his self esteem so he could be comfortable giving the presentation, but because it was TRUE and part of me was jealous that he has gotten to grow and it is such a beautiful sight.
The other part of me was so jealous as I knew that he and his team mates were going to go have a celebratory beer AFTER the presentation. One team mate is a female. I just dont like her. As I have said I have this stupid damn problem of NOT truly liking women to begin with, the other part is that I have seen how she interacts with him and it is flirty and just this "girly girl" shit that screams to me "I want YOUR HUBBY", and she could in my view easily take him from me. She is smart in the same field as him, kind to others, cute (altho he says she is totally not his "type"), she is more importantly HEALTHY and able to work. AND she spends a LOT of time with him right now.
I do not like myself being this jealous, especially when one night this past week he was so busy doing this project he stopped , I was sitting in the same room quietly watching TV and answering his questions if needed. He all of a sudden stopped turned in his chair and said to me "I'm so sorry I am not giving you the attention that you need right now." -- I assured him that it did not bother me, that he does and WAS giving me attention when I needed it, tho sometimes I have to wait -- but SAR his changes are so seemingly small i.e. the ability to look me in the eyes when he talks to me, his deeper more self assured voice. THOSE changes ARE giving me attention.
ANd I feel as if I am NOT giving and not ABLE to give to him what HE needs to be successful and productive and happy..... tho he tells me that I am doing so.....
I feel so torn SAR, so lonely and I am so scared that in the end I may lose the very MAN I have known was in him all along.
Perhaps too SAR, I need or want him to punish me? For all the stuff I did that hurt him during our marriage that he was unable to confront me about? BECAUSE I knew I could bully him in so many ways to get MY way.
Oh, SAR I hurt so bad .... I am so sorry I have dumped this on you...
I am so scared, and I want to share it on the board so others can see it too --- perhaps someone else is feeling these same things, but I feel if I do that I might hurt someone unintentionally.... and I may be hurting you also, please forgive me if I am....
BUT THANK YOU SAR for placing the TRIGGER Warning...
You are so Special in so many ways, Thank you for allowing me to trust you with this and for taking care of me when I screw up...
YOU are appreciated by me
Peace and Lots of Hugs cuz I need them too...
"SAR says" - Hey Sammy,
I don't have a lot of time right now just want to let you know you are heard.
Sammy there is safe space for you here. I know sometimes it can be hard for us to believe those words. I can't promise you'll never be challenged or upset but I promise that I'm not the only one trying to keep this space safe for partners including you.
Go ahead and share those positives. You have as much right to them as anyone.
Oh Sammy, which is worse-- to blame ourselves for (physically or emotionally) "checking out" and giving bad shit the time and space to happen-- or to face the questions of whether or not that bad shit would have happened even if we'd been there pushing, controlling and monitoring as hard as we could? In the end it's not our burden to push or monitor-- we're not to blame for putting it down.
For me that feeling of NO ONE is personal and goes back to my own neglectful childhood-- want dinner? well NO ONE's making it so start firing up the stove, Sar-- feeling bad? well NO ONE's listening so I guess you'll have to deal with that without bothering the rest of us-- etc. etc. I had a professor who used to respond to absolute statements by saying "The problem with that is that if one person disagrees with you, you're wrong"
**section edited to protect privacy**
"Sammy says" - SAR,
**sorry long & may contain some triggers**
This struck home big time for me: **section edited for privacy**
Hubby was less of a prize, and he still is less of a prize in many ways. I don't point them out to him - I pretty much figure that shit will come out in therapy, after all I am no Beauty Queen either. We were talking last night so intensely about the posting & then to add insult to injury one of his favorite bastards that he works with made a sexual harrassment statment to him at work yesterday. So, today we have to put all of that in writing and he will have to address that at work on Monday - OH Yay, he will be a real nice asshole to be around this weekend. Please excuse my sarcasm it is about the only rope I have to hang on to anymore.
What bothered me last night in our conversation is that he was / is more than willing to want to jump on the band wagon of what percent Sammy own's in this mess. We were discussing the jealousy part for me & how I just was feeling that I was no prize for him due to not having a higher education other than being a certified nursing Assistant and Certified Medication Assistant & my Neighborhood Works Programs. His Barber had made a comment on how impressive it was that hubbys family was so "highly educated", couldnt believe he was old enough to have daughs that are 22 & 24. I asked did he share MY education with the Barber also?, he said "no you dont have one" -
GAWD I had to remind him? AND what hurt is that I AM THE ONE STILL each one comes to when they need a paper edited, critiqued, spell checked etc. For God's Sake I have written many CITY Ordinances ! Non Profit Board Rules & Regs... yet I have no education? But more importantly my "health" could not and will not allow me to keep up with him.
It slips out of him that he is "looking for someone" that is X X X... I didn't respond because at first I really didn't think I had heard it right. Then I asked him a different question, What makes me different now than before we split up? He responded that he didn't feel I was any different than I had been. Ok that waaaay hurt so I decided it was entirely too late in the evening to be discussing the subject, that we both were very tired & I had too much pain medicine on board. But I am up early today and yes I am thinking about that shit... thinking of how when I mentioned that he had in common with his female classmate the ability to discuss electronics and that went over my head. Again I see this stupid smirk on his face, but he assures me she is not "girly" enough for him.
I pointed out to him that I am not exactly & was not exactly a "girly girl" when we got together neither am I now. That now I am more "dependant" upon him. Then he tells me how I was "packaged" so cute etc, "great I think, I have an additional 50 LBS on due to meds I wonder how long before he travels out to seeing whores again?"
BTW in one of our conversations he says he is not so sure that one of the prostitues he saw was not much more than about 14 yrs old or so, but his "drive for the sexual experience" pushed him to complete the acting out behavior. He JUST shared that last night, some 3+ yrs LATER....
If he takes his "dream job" he will be traveling / gone more than he is now & will add a new stressor & more opportunity for him to lose his sobriety.
I had pretty much told him one of my requirements for returning to this marriage is that after he graduates he will not be able to "take on" any more education other than what is required for his job. I know I am going to need a lot more health care by then. One on One care and I feel it should come from him. Besides I also feel that it is a must that we should go thru some sort of therapy to help heal our marriage so that we do not repeat the mistakes that we made for so long that ended up in "fright night".
He said " That will never happen again as I am sober from my sex addiction. AND I am not going to be drinking alcohol like that again." -- Alrighty then, I feel so stupid -- he thinks & this is a quote from him "We can start with a clean slate & forget about the hurtful things we did to each other and we will be fine."
Well, I have only heard a HUGE recipe for disaster. Perhaps he will never reoffend sexually again, as he states he is "scared to death of women" , yet I have caught him ogling adult women at times. I "know" he has had & continues a "crush" on an ex employee gal who was nice to him at work while she was employed there. So nice in fact that SHE & her boyfriend called him just recently on his birthday to wish him a happy birthday. As he tells me this he is grinning like the cat who ate the bird. Hubbys says he "thinks" he might be able to be "good friends" with her boyfriend. A first for him as his big motto is that he does not trust ANY man. (do you smell catfish bait too?)
I asked him if she knew about me & his sex offense. He said yes, she knew that we were split up at the time, & that alcohol was a driver in what happened that he owned up to what happened (i am beginning to believe that phrase maybe has gotten a little "too" easy for him to say)- I asked her response. He said her face pretty much went pale & she did not talk to him for several days & then eventually picked up & went on as if nothing mattered.
This is one of the GALS that he asked to take on his FORD paid for vacation when he earned Sr. Master Tech. She considered it until she found out he was "separated from me" & then she told him that she felt it just would be improper to go with him, considering his marital status. Sheese no wonder he liked her a woman with REAL CLASS & Standards & Morals!!
After last night SAR I am really not sure of ANYTHING ANYMORE... I asked him did he think I was going to get bored & impatient waiting for him to "finish school" so that our sex life could "grow again". His response was that he really didn't care if it didnt grow or become more active, but yes he was concerned that I would step out and have an affair --- What part of his answer gave me a reason to have hope for rebuilding a very important part of ANY relationship whether one or two persons are Adult Survivors?
BLECK, I am sorry I dumped all of this shit on you ----
What do you think if I should paste it on the board? For others comments or am I yet again looking for further punishment?
Now I wonder If I have come back into the relationship for "punishment" ???? Unresolved crimes I may or may not have committed against him? I say may or may not, because he did not communicate WHAT I did wrong or was doing wrong so I could have a chance to change those behaviors if I wanted.
OY... shut me up.
Thanks for being here SAR, How and what do you and your sweetie handle this type of stuff?
Have a Joyful Sunny God Day, Sammy
"SAR says" - Hey Sammy
Nothing you wrote to me is inappropriate for the board, how much of it you want to share on there is totally up to you.
It sounds to me like hubby is testing himself as much as he is testing you though-- not that that makes the behavior any healthier-- but maybe when he is saying "we don't need therapy because I will never do that again", he is not saying "You should trust that I'll never do it again" but instead he is saying "To prove to myself that I am better I will wipe the whole slate clean, take this job, make a friend, keep Sammy, all without therapy-- and if I fail then I am worthless and I was never any better at all"-- a way of sabotaging his own efforts with black and white thinking...
Maybe he is afraid too with the way things have been getting better and is trying to bring things back to their unhealthy but comfortable old way?
In our house when the old way stuff happens I usually just tell my boyfriend that I'm not playing anymore and walk away... although it took us a while to get to that point. **edited to protect privacy**
"Sammy says" - SAR,
Again at the end of your note you said something that I have often wondered myself -- you said **edited to protect privacy** ANd you & he were working it out even tho it really pissed you off. That this time you were ready to walk (something like that?) --
I am wondering myself WHAT if anything Hubby may do will be the thing that I will have to walk away on. I don't even know what those boundaries are anymore. Shit with everything he has done, do I even HAVE any boundaries?
I do believe I have been hurt in the max way he could ever hurt me. Exposing me to an STD when I already have severe heart disease with a ton of other diseases related, the visiting and using prostitutes and of course the conviction of being a sex offender.
I know you don't have any answers, and all of this stuff is "grey area". BUT, there ARE some areas that are black and white. For example I know for a fact that if he ever injured a child I would just kill him myself, if he didnt do it first.
But how and what kind of new boundaries did you and your sweetie come up with this time around?
**ending edited re: repetative stuff**
Perhaps others may have some comments along the way thru this. I certainly would appreciate others insights and points of view.
I still feel very disenheartened and the "Tension of Opposites" seems to be growing wider , but I recognize that I have been shutting down to protect myself and to prevent some needless angry fight that may not be able to be repaired between Hubby & I.
Peace for us All, Sammy
#56423 - 06/14/05 04:28 AM
Re: extension of prevention CAUTION!!!! (long also)
Loc: England Shropshire
It sounds to me like hubby is testing himself as much as he is testing you though-- not that that makes the behavior any healthier-- but maybe when he is saying "we don't need therapy because I will never do that again", he is not saying "You should trust that I'll never do it again" but instead he is saying "To prove to myself that I am better I will wipe the whole slate clean, take this job, make a friend, keep Sammy, all without therapy-- and if I fail then I am worthless and I was never any better at all"-- a way of sabotaging his own efforts with black and white thinking..
Sometime after thinking like that I started therapy, actually I thought and behaved like that for the first 25 years of my marriage and I still have the sensation that I'm ocassionally slipping back into that behaviour when stressed, but I recognise it now.
Another thing that the "To prove to myself that I am better I will wipe the whole slate clean, take this job, make a friend," idea made me realise is that I very often neglected the little things that tell someone you love them, like a spontaneous hug, and would instead remodel the laundry room expecting the same response.
If I remodel the laundry room I do get a good response, but it's a DIFFERENT one because it's a DIFFERENT situation, but I'm going for quantity instead of quality.
I'm easily confused.....
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau