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#517650 - 11/13/17 06:48 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
SDD757 Offline


Registered: 10/08/17
Posts: 297
Loc: Chesapeake, VA
I find that lots are shallow. or an over developed sense of normal/abnormal.

But not all of course.

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#517652 - 11/13/17 08:29 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: SubtleStuff]
SubtleStuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 518
Loc: North America
Hi Guys,

Originally Posted By SubtleStuff
I no longer feel as strong a charge around women who are physically (and emotionally) attractive to me and am carrying on with other ways to pursue my healing process (alone, with the help of pros., one volunteer position that mostly involves caring for animals and you guys here.). It's the best I can do for now.

There's a piece I neglected to mention here which is important. Sorry about this. I hope I didn't come across as too discouraging to you in the above quoted text. My commitment to my spiritual/meditative interests is very strong and very deep. I've been at this for a long time (30+ years). It's such a powerful background to my life that I sometimes fail to mention it. I've forgotten that my life could be any other way. It has also kept me alive more than once.

So when I think of my life purpose, having an intimate relationship with a woman isn't absolutely central to it. That doesn't mean I won't pursue opportunities that arise but unless a woman is supportive of my spiritual interests (and ideally I am supportive of hers) there is no point. Why bother with all the fuss of someone else's trips when the Love is gone? I can carry on pursuing my spiritual interests on my own. There is lots to learn there anyways. My life purpose is more closely connected (at least consciously) to aligning my will with the Will of Existence (some would call this God's Will). If existence wants me single, then so be it. It may not be always that much fun, but it seems to be my experience of my Higher Power's will these days. I hope this leaves you more inspired and less depressed around your situation with women. I know from my own experience how hard it can be.

Sincerely,

S
_________________________
A friend is one with whom I can pour out my heart, chaff and grain together, knowing that gentle hands will sift it, connect with me with care, support what is healthy, and with a breath of kindness, blow away the rest. Thanks for being friends, guys :-) (Inspired by Dinah Craik).

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#517653 - 11/13/17 09:09 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
SubtleStuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 518
Loc: North America
Hi Chris,

I thought I'd spend more time on your original questions directly.

Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
My questions include:
1) I know we are all imperfect and fail, but intent matters. Are all women at their core just selfish, conniving, manipulative, and untrustworthy? Is their initial “niceness” (if they demonstrate any) just a ruse?
I would answer no to this. I've met some remarkably kind women and some remarkably healthy ones. I think, as a culture, we have a very poor handle at integrating love and sex. Women get caught in their dreams of how things should go with men just as much as men do. Some are better at handling the disillusionment than others. Most have no idea that anything other than the "Battle of the Sexes" is possible. Love and Freedom need each other. That's a very tough sell in our culture. We tend to embrace one at the expense of the other.

Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
2) Do any take responsibility for their actions and try to become better people? Or are they all blind to their flaws? I hear so many horror stories from men about how their wives or girlfriends think that they (the wives and girlfriends) are perfect and that it is only the man that ever is/has the problem. I have seen and experienced this as well.
Some do. Some don't. I think as men we have to find our role in the dynamic, do a better job of standing up for and taking care of ourselves and finding a way to become less needy of female attention.

Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
3) Are they all dishonest and do they all avoid telling you what they are really thinking? Maybe the ones who lied to me thought they were sparing my feelings – or maybe they were just afraid - but in the end it did more harm than good.
I've experienced a mix in this department. I think many women lie because they are afraid. Creating a connection where safety dominates is key to escaping this trap. In the end, it's up to me to learn how to better take care of myself and/or embrace the pain when someone lies to me.

Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
4) Do they all make hurtful comments that they know will hurt you?
No.

Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
Any thoughts? How have you – as men – experienced women?
I've experienced women being remarkably hurtful usually in very subtle ways and some that were remarkably good people. I often see women as fearful. Fearful people can do a great deal of harm without ever intending to do so. I'm more interested in my own ways of relating. I have tended to spend much time repressing my feelings of attraction and a few brief spurts of expressing them. Neither were all that satisfactory. I'm hoping that as I continue to heal myself and gain strength I will be less thrown off centre by women. I seem to be making progress in this these days.

Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
Women who are reading this are also welcome to offer their thoughts. If you think I am going too far with broad generalizations, perhaps you can suggest ways that my views and experiences can become more balanced.
You might want to post this under the "Family and friends" forum. Women are specifically warned to not post here.

I hope this helps you Chris. Thanks for posting your questions. I enjoy your presence here very much.

Sincerely,

S


Edited by SubtleStuff (11/13/17 09:12 PM)
Edit Reason: add a detail
_________________________
A friend is one with whom I can pour out my heart, chaff and grain together, knowing that gentle hands will sift it, connect with me with care, support what is healthy, and with a breath of kindness, blow away the rest. Thanks for being friends, guys :-) (Inspired by Dinah Craik).

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#517688 - 11/14/17 09:56 AM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2847
Loc: Newark, England
Originally Posted By Chris
Lately I have identified something that I lacked all my life and have been exploring how it affected me, including how it helped to drive me to compulsive behavior.
It has to do with never really feeling important to someone. Never having felt like I was an important part of someone else's experience of life. It mostly centers around women, but not completely.


I definitely understand this and have felt it hugely. A problem I have always had is my intensive perception of worthlessness. I struggle repeatedly with the idea that basically anyone who is my friend or wants any connection with me is doing so because they! are an intensively good person who can tolerate me, that there is nothing within me that would be worth anything to someone else.

It's not difficult to work out where this comes from, add together the way unfortunately so much of society still treats someone with a visible disability (especially one that causes the all important eye contact to be impossible), my emotional isolation at boarding school followed by the pretty blatant public abuse and humiliation that followed at secondary school.

it's not hard to work out. I often felt that there was literally a hole inside me, a physical ache when I realized that the closest and most intimate I'd been with anyone was while having my face spat in.

For me, because I am straight, this sort of connection would only be possible with a woman. I've definitely seen gay couples who have the sort of connection I'm talking about, but for me just wouldn't be possible since I am just not built to be attracted to men.

This was troubling for me to realize, since I suffered such genophobia, that is fear of sex, and even my own libido was something I didn't like, but it is absolutely true. Similarly however, this is not something which would've been satisfied with a prostitute or similar, since that would not have been a connection, indeed I used to have nightmares about that very thing, a loveless, completely none emotional sexual experience.

I tried to remove this desire, to ignore it, to shut the door on it. I myself I would be like Hoffman in the opera by Ofenbach, someone who forsakes love for the muse of poetry.
The problem is it simply didn't work, I could not crush the desire for this sort of intimacy no matter what I did. I just felt, and indeed still feel that if I have that connection, that intimacy,t I can stand everything else.

My lady actually said I was ready, that I needed the relationship with her, indeed in a lot of ways once she had extricated herself from the bad situation I mentioned there was very little possibility of not! being married.

So I definitely get the sort of need your talking about, even if I can't exactly tell you how to go about finding someone who can fill it other than being very, very lucky.

@Ss, interesting comments, I'll have a think about them and reply further in a while. Indeed some of your cultural observations remind me frighteningly of the so called "marriage counselling" which the rather loopy priest gave us before our wedding, which included such wonderful nuggets of wisdom as "The only thing to stop a man hitting his wife is walking in the path of god", and "Most problems in a marriage are caused by the man because women know when they're on to a good thing and will stick with it" (the guy was a nutcase, and what is even scarier is that he thought this was good advice to give a couple just getting married).

Luke.

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#517711 - 11/15/17 12:39 AM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: SubtleStuff]
Chris4TheMill Offline


Registered: 05/16/17
Posts: 615
Loc: NY / NJ Area
Originally Posted By SubtleStuff
I think they just felt trapped in a relationship that wasn't living up to the dream they were sold...They often mirror my mother in that their anger is carefully hidden and hasn't found a constructive outlet...Since I'm unable to engage in the normal mating game they probably feel safer than usual. They don't feel that I'm pursuing them sexually. In reality I'm not (at least consciously), but it sets me up to getting locked into my own infant fantasy (a loving physically affectionate mother figure) which never materializes (she probably doesn't want an adult child)....Does this make sense to you?

Thanks S.S. I wanted to circle back on this and now seems the right time. So you seem to be painting a portrait of a woman who has no intention of leaving her husband, so she views you as a kind of playpen for her. Therefore, because she has no real emotional investment in the relationship with you, she basically takes care of her needs - what she thinks she is missing - and you are basically there to cater to them.

Yeah, doesn't sound like a great deal to me. And not that I would ever advocate breaking up a marriage, but there isn't much romance in this. It is certainly not like on T.V. or the movies smile

About the mother figure fantasy - yes, know it well. Too much detail to go into here, but most of it was projected onto my aunt. I might have a little bit of the neediness left, but it feels different. I don't feel like so much like the little boy anymore. Also, I have definitely learned the lesson that women do NOT want to be with an adult version of a male child, no joke. I hope to not present that to them any longer. I don't feel like I do, but have not gotten much feedback to confirm that yet.

As for your later comments, which basically had to do with submitting to the will of God for your singleness, that is something I am still wrestling with. Again, too much to go into I think, but I have some simple thoughts here too. On the one hand I like my freedom, and probably suffer at times from the "grass is greener" syndrome. On the other hand, all I know is that I was content for most of my adult life, and now I am not anymore. My whole openness to, and desire for a relationship has changed almost overnight. I can't help but wonder what that means. I know better than to believe that in itself entitles me to anything. Nor do i think the openness and desire are any kind of magic keys.

But I wonder - why now, why when I am this age. What is going on, etc. Guess I will have to keep trusting and just keep taking steps and see where I am being lead....either away or toward.

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#517845 - 11/17/17 06:24 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
SubtleStuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 518
Loc: North America
Hey Chris!

Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
I might have a little bit of the neediness left, but it feels different. I don't feel like so much like the little boy anymore....

That's great! It's a good place to be in in order to relate from a place of maturity. I'm a little envious of you. I'm still going through layers and layers of fear and anger. The effect on my body can be disturbing. The anger can be difficult to feel at all. It usually is preceded by an intense feeling of depression. I consciously work to find the anger in it so I don't get stuck there. Anger at women, for me, is highly taboo territory.

I often find it very hard to disconnect from my longing for the kind of nurturing support that infants need. It's usually mixed up with sexual fantasies. My youth was dominated by some very powerful events that connect strongly to highly taboo territory in our culture (sex and death). I get some support from a male massage therapist, but I find the most reliable source of support is my own body awareness. If I can stay out of my dream world for a bit (it's these dreams that drag me into unsatisfying connections with women) and focus on the various sensations my body experiences and allow my breath to do what it wants, it seems to help.

Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
Guess I will have to keep trusting and just keep taking steps and see where I am being lead....either away or toward (a woman).

Sounds good to me. If I've the energy to explore an attraction, I'll make some kind of effort to reach out (unless of course I can find a way to avoid it altogether which is often my preference). My most recent burst of exploring attractive women was more or less forced on me. I had to choose between running away from my primary source of health support or face the fear of having to be in the presence of his very attractive receptionist. It put me through some very difficult emotions, but fortunately the support was good and I survived it! I'm feeling a little stronger these days.

Thanks for writing.

Best wishes for your adventures with women. Keep us posted please! :-)

Sincerely,

S
_________________________
A friend is one with whom I can pour out my heart, chaff and grain together, knowing that gentle hands will sift it, connect with me with care, support what is healthy, and with a breath of kindness, blow away the rest. Thanks for being friends, guys :-) (Inspired by Dinah Craik).

Top
#519922 - 01/11/18 04:45 AM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
2Bnormal51 Offline


Registered: 01/09/18
Posts: 35
Loc: Canada
Chris,
I hear and feel your pain and I can totally relate.
My abuser was my mother, who also was abused by her father.
Her emotional abuse, physical abuse, mental abuses, her rages, the violence when in a rage would scare the best of men.
My abuse started around my toddler years possibly earlier. She was in and out of lesbianism, her marriage to my father was a ruse to get out of the house from her father, which I don't blame her. She was covertly manipulative, she did not desire my birth, and I grew up most of my youth hearing how my mother wanted girls and not boys.
It is safe to say she had a hate towards men, but used them for her purposes.
I am not married, I am single and do not desire to be married, I am a believer in the Lord, and by His Grace I am still alive.
I have many lady friends, men not so much, they do not know how to "take" me.
I agree with you, I also find women more aggressive than men, highly more manipulative, most I do not trust. I have been sexually harassed by a female supervisor who I worked under, she touched my genital area twice, and rubbed her breasts across my chess, nurses would touch and pat my buttocks, and it would send me to the roof. That was the year I lost my job, because of certain women and cast me into a time period of PTSD. I was a mess. I cried all the time had no one to talk to found out more info regarding my mother and her dishonesty toward us. I ended up on Paxil for a year. I could not work, I was a broken man. I also thought I had Bypolar problems.....
That was the year I had to face the facts of the abuses place upon me. My brother who was favored by my mother did not suffer what I did, he came along 2 years later.

So I understand your question, but I also can understand how the pain we suffered may cause us to view it this way.
I still know I have issues with women and there treatment towards men especially in this day and age we presently live in......I hate it!
However, I understand woman were abused in so many ways themselves by men, and I can understand and relate.....
I at one time was pushed into believing I should have been a girl, due to my mother's disdain and bitterness towards me as a boy. I in my twenties seriously considered a sex change. That did not come into play, I thank God for that!
To this day my mother still treats me like a second rate family member.
I have to pray for God's help to talk with her.
She denies any wrong doing in many areas, I have not confronted her on the abuse issues, her rage will set me back for months.
She see's herself as a "perfect" human being, and thinks everyone should be as upright as herself.......
I think the present spirit among a large percentage of women think and feel this way also.......
I hear you and I shall pray that the Lord helps us to face this question properly....
Later.....

Thank you for listening.....I have much to ask, much to get off my chest......and women are not the ones I can talk about this with.


Edited by 2Bnormal51 (01/11/18 04:53 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling, proper grammar fixes

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#520592 - 01/29/18 08:10 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
Chris4TheMill Offline


Registered: 05/16/17
Posts: 615
Loc: NY / NJ Area
Hey 2Bnormal51,

I can relate to some of your experiences with your mother, and other women. I carried the pain of all of the abuse, cruelty, insensitivity and neglect for many years. I am deeply sorry for what you went through and I hope you believe me when I say that we did not deserve it and they cannot take away our worth or value even though it feels like that is exactly what they did.

I also want to say at the outset, don't give up fighting for your selfhood and your healing. I have had a few breakthroughs over the years and in fact just had one about a week ago, where I was able to grieve more of the "lost little boy" that my mother never loved. I also made a choice to forgive her and the other girls and women that hurt me. It was profound, and I feel that since then, something in me has shifted. I am carrying less of that "lost little boy" inside. I feel like I have gained a small but significant degree of selfhood that was missing before.

That being said, I too grew up hearing from my mother that she wanted girls, so she could "dress them up and make them look pretty." Between that and the molestation during my Florida years, I did have this perverse desire at times to be a girl. I didn't focus on that until recently, as I began examining it in my journaling.

My own mother died from alcoholism when I was 17. It was a mixture of relief and loss, because I was so emotionally enmeshed with her. But it has been a decades-long journey to undo a lot of the damage she caused. I do not think I could have come this far if she were still around and I had contact with her.

She knew she hurt me terribly, but NEVER apologized for anything and always told me that "you didn't have it that bad." Basically, her delusional thinking and denial of reality went to the grave with her.

My aunt was also like this growing up, never admitting any wrong-doing and clinging to this false idea that she was "perfect." That also did a huge amount of damage to me, as I bought into her lies and agreed with her about my worthlessness as a boy and as a man. Today, however, she has changed quite a bit and has accepted me more because she sees how much I have changed and that I am not the same socially-awkward, weak, nebbish-y person I used to be. Also at this point her weaknesses have become more evident to her and I am also much stronger than she is now so I calmly challenge her any time she tries to minimize my early abuse or treat me in any kind of disrespectful manner (which is rare). She remains however, not very emotionally intelligent and so we still have times where she can still really frustrate me. However, while it sounds impossible, we actually are somewhat close now, at least as close as one can be with someone who is at her core, emotionally repressed.

There were periods of years where I did not speak to her because she would do or say something really horrible and then tell me that I was the problem for being "too sensitive." (Or my favorite - the "I'm sorry you feel that way" - which is basically their self-righteous way of saying f-you). So we went through episodes of that for years.

As far as your mother is concerned (sounds like she also cannot admit wrong-doing), I would never try to tell you what to do, but I would encourage you to minimize your contact with her while you are actively pursuing your own healing. Reason is, because her reactions can set you back. We can't change people and sometimes they will be difficult and cruel until they die. Others might soften, but there are no guarantees.

I know there is a lot more to explore in our relationships with women. I am slowly realizing though that they are weak too, and have their own insecurities and struggles. They are not quite the more powerful, almost demonic forces that I felt them to be. They can still cause hurt, but I no longer feel that the hurt they cause is insurmountable or indelible. In short, I am less afraid of them than I used to be. But it still sucks anytime someone is insensitive or uncaring or narcissistic.

Take care for now and feel free to PM anytime,

Chris

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#520664 - 02/01/18 09:40 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
Celtaf Offline


Registered: 07/02/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By Chris4TheMill
Hey 2Bnormal51,

I can relate to some of your experiences with your mother, and other women. I carried the pain of all of the abuse, cruelty, insensitivity and neglect for many years. I am deeply sorry for what you went through and I hope you believe me when I say that we did not deserve it and they cannot take away our worth or value even though it feels like that is exactly what they did.

I also want to say at the outset, don't give up fighting for your selfhood and your healing. I have had a few breakthroughs over the years and in fact just had one about a week ago, where I was able to grieve more of the "lost little boy" that my mother never loved. I also made a choice to forgive her and the other girls and women that hurt me. It was profound, and I feel that since then, something in me has shifted. I am carrying less of that "lost little boy" inside. I feel like I have gained a small but significant degree of selfhood that was missing before.

That being said, I too grew up hearing from my mother that she wanted girls, so she could "dress them up and make them look pretty." Between that and the molestation during my Florida years, I did have this perverse desire at times to be a girl. I didn't focus on that until recently, as I began examining it in my journaling.

My own mother died from alcoholism when I was 17. It was a mixture of relief and loss, because I was so emotionally enmeshed with her. But it has been a decades-long journey to undo a lot of the damage she caused. I do not think I could have come this far if she were still around and I had contact with her.

She knew she hurt me terribly, but NEVER apologized for anything and always told me that "you didn't have it that bad." Basically, her delusional thinking and denial of reality went to the grave with her.

My aunt was also like this growing up, never admitting any wrong-doing and clinging to this false idea that she was "perfect." That also did a huge amount of damage to me, as I bought into her lies and agreed with her about my worthlessness as a boy and as a man. Today, however, she has changed quite a bit and has accepted me more because she sees how much I have changed and that I am not the same socially-awkward, weak, nebbish-y person I used to be. Also at this point her weaknesses have become more evident to her and I am also much stronger than she is now so I calmly challenge her any time she tries to minimize my early abuse or treat me in any kind of disrespectful manner (which is rare). She remains however, not very emotionally intelligent and so we still have times where she can still really frustrate me. However, while it sounds impossible, we actually are somewhat close now, at least as close as one can be with someone who is at her core, emotionally repressed.

There were periods of years where I did not speak to her because she would do or say something really horrible and then tell me that I was the problem for being "too sensitive." (Or my favorite - the "I'm sorry you feel that way" - which is basically their self-righteous way of saying f-you). So we went through episodes of that for years.

As far as your mother is concerned (sounds like she also cannot admit wrong-doing), I would never try to tell you what to do, but I would encourage you to minimize your contact with her while you are actively pursuing your own healing. Reason is, because her reactions can set you back. We can't change people and sometimes they will be difficult and cruel until they die. Others might soften, but there are no guarantees.

I know there is a lot more to explore in our relationships with women. I am slowly realizing though that they are weak too, and have their own insecurities and struggles. They are not quite the more powerful, almost demonic forces that I felt them to be. They can still cause hurt, but I no longer feel that the hurt they cause is insurmountable or indelible. In short, I am less afraid of them than I used to be. But it still sucks anytime someone is insensitive or uncaring or narcissistic.

Take care for now and feel free to PM anytime,

Chris


That is very sad. I'm sorry that this happened and that you have had to deal with someone who is unrepentant.

I think part of why people struggle with women who are abusive in this way is the same as when women feel this about men: because it was systemic in their lives. Yet of course this is not all of life, but it feels that way when you are in it. It can be harder for men though because while most of us can easily see how a woman might be systemically abused by men, it is harder to see it when a man or boy is systemically abused by women or girls. It makes it harder then to accept that the bad things happened and make sense of them.

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#520666 - 02/01/18 10:31 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
Chris4TheMill Offline


Registered: 05/16/17
Posts: 615
Loc: NY / NJ Area
Thank you. Actually my whole family tends to be similarly unrepentant. They will likely all go to their graves never apologizing for anything they have done, no matter how heinous. The only exception has been my aunt, who has softened a bit over the years but is still very repressed and emotionally tone-deaf, but "manageable."

I think it is a mix of generational dysfunction, individual narcissism, borderline personality disorder in one case, possible autism / aspergers in one case, man-hating lesbian / feminism in another, and a very large amount of emotional immaturity, self-centeredness and repression in all cases. I sadly remain the only one who actively works on my own issues and sees a therapist.

With the female issues, I was reading an article recently on narcissistic parents and it helped me to understand why I was so passive and unable to stand up for myself with girls and women as a kid and young person. With my mother, life revolved around her needs and emotions, so I was never encouraged to express my own. Being assertive or disagreeable in any way was physically punished, so I became afraid of strong, dominating females from an early age. Essentially I became this shell of a person who didn't know how to assert myself or say "no" when girls or other women were abusive or using me for something.

That made me a ripe target for the abuse to follow: The step-mother-from-hell, my aunt in her worst moments, my female cousin, and so many others.

When I hit puberty, this unfortunately gave rise to an attraction to BDSM porn, and any fantasies involving females being punished, as I felt too weak to stand up to them myself. You are right though, I could not emotionally deal with or accept how badly some of them had hurt me, and it came out in these primal yet highly immature and unhelpful ways. It took a long time to work past most of that. Everything else I am still sorting out.

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