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#516236 - 10/14/17 07:41 PM 15 different reasons men have sex with men
SmartShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 472
Eye opening article by Joe Kort.

http://www.joekort.com/var/joekort2/stor...86afd3342f0.pdf

More articles, from a blog where I found the above article.
http://www.joekort.com/articles.htm/Sexuality/articles91.htm

To me this article speaks to my over using the term "gay" to explain the experiences and confusion many of us have here. There is nothing wrong with being gay in my opinion and I absolutely believe some of us are born gay. I just don't think it serves anyone to over use and dilute the understanding and meaning of the term.

I also believe that there are a disproportionate number of male sexual abuse survivors who have homosexual compulsive behavior and thoughts that do not necessarily match there actually sexual orientation. I do think it is reasonable for survivors to consider things from different vantage points especially when it seems so difficult to make sense of our sexual feelings and conflicts that many of us have because of being victims of childhood sexual abuse.

If the term gay is to be reserved primary for a type of sexual orientation then it may explain the frequent use of SSA (same sex attraction) on this discussion board. After reading this article, the term Gay and the acronym SSA are still not enough categories to cover all the possible reasons and combination of reasons. "Situational homosexuality" seems to be appropriate but still very vague.

It really depends on what's driving what. This really gets me thinking and re-evaluating my own understanding of my sexual identity.

All thoughts and opinions to the article or this posts are most welcomed.

I really appreciate all of you and the chance to get some other thoughts about this.


Edited by SmartShadow (10/14/17 11:03 PM)

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#516240 - 10/14/17 08:45 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
Ceremony Offline
Greeter

Registered: 09/14/16
Posts: 2978
Loc: Minnesota
I was wowed by that list. It is thorough and thoughtful. I appreciate it. I still think I'm hetero, yet, there are thoughts, and I can relate to the imprint noted in that article. I've not wanted to act on it, but those thoughts do exist.

I have major issues about my body, so sexuality hasn't been much of a focus for me, it's more that, since bullying, I didn't have any confidence and knew I had a lot to compensate for. I was able to talk to people, and women, I made some friends. I made gay friends. He hit on me, but with friendship, knew it wasn't going to work with me. He was a very good friend for me. The kind I need in real life.

If only gay or sensitive men like me can relate well with the way I think, my question is, can I go to a open gay men's group and try to express myself, in a not so sexual way? Can I, I think rhetorically...

I want to, I really want a men's group and to me, the only one I'm going to find, is an open gay men's group, should I be disappointed, or in advance, consider that opportunity to perhaps be in connection with men whom I've known to be sensitive their feelings, their likes about art, music, the earth, metaphysical concepts, and are open to accepting what sexuality someone has. I don't trust that all straight men will be like me, but, then, I think in a csa group, that would be different. I can't find one, so...


Hmmm... this is all in context of dealing with my consideration of sexuality. I'm wanting to go in public, to connect with people, and I think it can expose me to sexual people. It already has, at my job, just weeks ago. A man thought I was gay, and to me, he was flirting relentlessly with me. I was not pleased, but I haven't the makeup to just end that. I was doing my job, and he manipulated the way conversation would go, and I would steer it back to the task. Over and over... well, that's that.

I just need to be able to be comfortable that I am who I am, my body type, and I'm likeable. I don't want sex, but I do think about it. Not like studies make it seem... I'm sure that was for the young... I'm too far along for multiple times a minute grin ...

I'm still married... sex isn't the issue there, and to consider my children, my son at home, it's a complex issue for me to even type about. I'm tip-toeing... Have I touched on sexuality at all yet?

I don't see myself as much confused and having to deal with how I am accepting me, my body, and my sense of how I can connect and interact maturely. To stick up for myself if I am again in a situation where I am presented with a gay encounter. I seem to attract it, without overtly trying. If that's my demeanor, then so be it, I'm tired of having to change me, I want to know how I will behave in response. I want maturity, my boundaries. If some day, I choose that I am ok with a man, if I love him, I can see it as a possibility. So, does that make me bi? I don't know? I want a woman with my body, that's what I really want. But, I am old, I want a loving relationship. Is this about the abuse too?


Lots to ponder, I accept it all as process and thank you smartshadow for an opportunity to put myself out here and think all this over.

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#516249 - 10/14/17 11:15 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: Ceremony]
SmartShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 472
Hey Ceremony,

Thank you for putting yourself out there and helping to set the tone for this thread. I found what you said very interesting and you seem like a really decent self aware guy.

It's very unfortunate that a guy at work is hitting on you. That must be getting old very fast. I have seen this kind of thing before. Sexual orientation and emotionally intelligence does not necessarily correlate.

I don't have much time at the moment but I would like to respond more to your post later on.

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#516268 - 10/15/17 12:50 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 357
Loc: New York City
I appreciate what you are bringing here in these threads. It's incredibly valuable and thankfully there is a subforum on this site. The fact that there is this subforum means - to me - that we men should be able to discuss this issue without fear of being subject to men coming on here to disagree with our personal stories or opinions on whether to term it SSA, orientation, "situational homosexuality" (haven't heard that in a while but yes!), etc. Your open tone about men's sexual identity issues as a result of abuse is very welcome and appealing for me so thank you for that.
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#516269 - 10/15/17 02:07 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: EdfromNYC]
SmartShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 472
Hey Ed,

Thanks for your thoughts and input.
Yeah I think we live in very interesting times.
I completely agree with needing to talk about it.

I strongly believe that the gay rights movement was one of the most important social revolutions of my life time. I believe that the growing acceptance of the right to be who we are sexually should be a fundamental protected human right. The ignorance, fear, hate and barbaric treatment and views towards homosexualityand homosexuals in this country needed to change. The problem with such a radical change of any kind is that it creates a lot of fear and uncertainty. Good people get caught up in the pinch zone. And good people say unfortunate thing when they feel threatened.

(trigger warning / suicided)
For me the gay rights movement has created a lot of discussion and awareness of male sexuality. The idea that homosexual feelings and behaviors are normal to the human experience should be a no brainier. But we have been taught to hide and be ashamed instead of searching for our own peace and understanding. It has always sadden me greatly that kids have been hopeless and ended their lives because of parents, role models and the society around them have demonized homosexuality. One 19 year old young man that I know of, who was molested by an uncle, took his life. Was he confused? Was he gay or bisexual? Was he afraid to talk to anyone? His parents put it together after it was too late. That was 15 years ago. In today's culture he probably could have gotten some support and with a more tolerant society and websites like this been able to find his way. I don't know. His parents were religiously against homosexually. That I believe cost them there son. (end trigger warning)

I am glad that extremely hypocrisy is exposed and losing its hold.

I appreciate where Joe Kort is coming from. I believe he is attempting to expand and build upon the framework work of the gay rights movement to include a increasingly growing understanding of the complexity of human sexuality and relationships.

I really appreciate that he is himself openly gay and a pro gay activists and also an activist for male survivors who in some cases struggle with sexual feelings and thoughts that are in conflict with there orientation.

His is a voice that reaches out to me as a male survivor and say my sexual uncertainty is legitimate and not the same thing as being a gay man in denial. That's a really big deal to me.

The other thing I really appreciate is his progressive views around marriage. Not that long ago I had come to the conclusion that I must be gay and that I wasn't going to be in denial about that anymore. (After a lot of reevaluating I now consider myself bisexual) My marriage and family are my life so I had to figure out how to keep my priorities in order. Joe Kort has a lot to say about mixed orientation marriages and how they can and do work well for many. This is an area that has been often seen as a death sentence to a marriage. It's encouraging to hear a professional give example after example to the contrary. Basically I think he is saying, sexual orientation is very important but there's a lot more to it than just that. I am not sure any of this could have happened before the pro gay moment reached its tipping point.

It's a kindness an a descent thing to acknowledge someone's on going abuse experience as legitimate.

I appreciate that Joe Kort's information is helping me sort my reality out a bit more. A voice of reason for sure.


Edited by SmartShadow (10/16/17 10:41 AM)
Edit Reason: Adding a thought

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#516273 - 10/15/17 05:19 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
iaccus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/14
Posts: 745
Loc: Idaho
Thank you for the post, certainly food for thought!

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#516274 - 10/15/17 05:19 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
iaccus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/14
Posts: 745
Loc: Idaho
Thank you for the post, certainly food for thought!

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#516355 - 10/17/17 08:31 AM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
KMCINVA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 4201
Loc: VIRGINIA
Very interesting article. It looks as though the medical arena is finally beginning to get their arms around sexuality as well as the impacts of trauma on behavior which is not always orientation. The mind is a complex organ so easily influenced and disturbed by life events from various traumas, abuses and its own inner workings. I know a few people who could use some learning in this area because clearly to opine and say you understand how trauma impacts the brain shows a level of ignorance.

Thank you for sharing

Kevin

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#516480 - 10/19/17 04:03 AM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: iaccus]
SmartShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 472
Hey Iaccus,
Thanks for chiming in.
I really appreciate it.
Stay well.

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#516481 - 10/19/17 04:08 AM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: KMCINVA]
SmartShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 472
Hey Kevin, thanks for your post.

Yeah the level of ignorance out there is really very troubling.
The more I realize how many damaging misconceptions there are floating around out there the more I realize that I have a great T. I have been with him for 5 years now and he's not someone that needs to be educated. Makes it a lot easier to write the check.

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#516650 - 10/22/17 04:53 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
SDD757 Offline


Registered: 10/08/17
Posts: 320
Loc: Chesapeake, VA
Now I’m even more confused than I was before. I grew up thinking I was gay. Then I had a religious experience that I thought made me straight. Struggles with being straight for 20 years as a married man. Decided that apparently God does not change your sexuality because he hasn’t in my case (and untold others). Then decided I was gay and to come out. Now back in therapy with the CSA and my Christian Therapist says that I can indeed be made straight.

Now I read this and wind if I was ever gay to begin with. The only problem is I’m not attracted to women...

How can you tell if you are gay?


Edited by SDD757 (10/22/17 05:20 PM)

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#516652 - 10/22/17 05:28 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SDD757]
Ceremony Offline
Greeter

Registered: 09/14/16
Posts: 2978
Loc: Minnesota
Conversion, or to be made straight, would be something I would not deal with. I have always identified straight. Yet, with age, and with the need to find strength in love in a relationship, and have a true partner, I would not exclude a man. I will also add, that to me, the spectrum of female and male doesn't bother me. I have also identified as a man whose masculine identity is not developed, and I like it that I can feel as masculine or feminine as I want to be. I will choose it to my taste as I want in the scenario I think fits.

I might find myself in a situation where nearly everyone else is gay, and I'm not, and it's social, I'm not sure how I'll react to flirtation, or just social friendliness. I might find someone very endearing and kind, and wish to be friends. I would love to make friends. To me, I don't find the masculine, or male that has to express a keen sense of power, or top dog esteem an attractive male. The same for female. I like nice, polite and direct people. Honesty is a big deal, and I sense danger when a hint of dishonesty shows.

Trust, loving, caring, passion, comfort, directness, etc... all help me to get to know someone. When I have to work around someone's excess assertiveness, I want to back off.

I wonder if I'm being ironic, in that I write so much and want to engage with topics I find resonating. Apparently there are a lot of topics that resonate with me.


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#516656 - 10/22/17 05:37 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
SDD757 Offline


Registered: 10/08/17
Posts: 320
Loc: Chesapeake, VA
Gender spectrum: yeah, I have that also. I would rather be female...

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#516658 - 10/22/17 05:42 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SDD757]
Ceremony Offline
Greeter

Registered: 09/14/16
Posts: 2978
Loc: Minnesota
SDD757, have you discussed that with a therapist, outside of the church? I'm not saying a Christian wouldn't know what gender dysphoria is, I'm a Christian, but I know, in the church, I'm a rarity.

Have you considered what gender dysphoria is?

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#516660 - 10/22/17 06:07 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
SDD757 Offline


Registered: 10/08/17
Posts: 320
Loc: Chesapeake, VA
I had a secular therapist before this one and she was very supportive and gave me a lot of insight into things.

I really wish I had not left her, but I started couples therapy with my wife. So fare just been dealing with the CSA and suicidal issues at the moment.

This therapist pretty much is in line with the Nashville Statement... (something that I reject)


Edited by SDD757 (10/22/17 06:07 PM)

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#516666 - 10/22/17 08:57 PM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
KMCINVA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 4201
Loc: VIRGINIA
That is not a healthy report--the Nashville Report. It could be called the Woodside Report, the Leesburg Report or any other town or city report but it is ignorant and destructive. I have lived with too many who know everything but know nothing about trauma and abuse and will tell you they know.

SDD757 I hope you find a T that will help you. I am aghast when I read about the narrow and prejudicial mindset of people. I have lived it and most are not evangelical Christians but closed minded Catholics. They wear the religion on the sleeve and then wham who can we make fun of and tell how bad they are.

I am amazed when they or a loved one is afflicted with an illness from cancer to colon cancer to heart ailments science is where they run but anything with CSA from PTSD, dissociation, syncope, and other emotional and psychological issues as well as biological issues from orientation to gender and that is BS in their book. I have lived and seen it and can tell you they want to inflict more pain on those who suffer.

I have heard spitting, locking someone in a room and so has no psychological impact on a person but a person exposed to gas fumes or toxic vapors over and over has cancer but that is real. Both are real and people need to face reality and stop judging, especially when they do not understand how the mind works.

I really hope you can find someone else to help you--someone with an open mind and one who has the ability to look beyond their closed mind.

Best wishes.

Kevin

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#516671 - 10/23/17 01:50 AM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
SDD757 Offline


Registered: 10/08/17
Posts: 320
Loc: Chesapeake, VA
Thanks Kevin.

At the moment I’m working on my abuse and marriage. Unfortunately, my wife is not of the same mind as I am. Right now this will have to work until I can arrive at an alternative.

But I completely agree with you about the report and non affirming beliefs.

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#516674 - 10/23/17 02:31 AM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SDD757]
SmartShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 472
Hey SDD757,

Really sorry you're going through all of this confusion and trying to work it out with your wife. I can relate.

Something else by Joe Kort

http://www.joekort.com/var/joekort2/stor...7fc1cacb678.pdf

I too hope you can find a T that helps you find yourselve.

I keep coming back to Joe Kort for answers that make sense to me.

I am going to find a T for my wife and I to get couples therapy. I want to see if I can find someone who lines up with Kort's believes.

Some articles below on mixed orientation marriages. This is probably my really as well. But I believe I can retain my marriage and be true to who I am at the same time. Not without personal sacrifice and loss but I would have that to deal with regardless. I believe I am bisexual with sexual traumatic imprinting from csa. But time will tell as I keep working through it.

http://www.joekort.com/articles.htm/Mixed_Orientation_Marriages/joekort_the_new_mixed_marriage.htm

Stay true to yourself and have integrity. Good advice from Kort's article.

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#520121 - 01/16/18 11:22 AM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
Searching13 Offline


Registered: 02/07/16
Posts: 20
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Thanks for posting that article
It puts a lot of things in perspective for me

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#522156 - 03/24/18 09:28 AM Re: 15 different reasons men have sex with men [Re: SmartShadow]
JamesM Offline


Registered: 01/30/18
Posts: 164
Loc: UK
The report partly describes my confusion as a youth and adult:-
5. Men acting out early childhood sexual abuse.

It took me a long time to accept that I am not homosexual since I had childhood fantasies of being raped by youths.

It does not fully describe me and I never went so far as to experiment with males. I would feel fear with sexual arousal around some men and struggled with that.

During a heterosexual relationship the sexual arousal was very strong and the fear gradually reduced. I no longer fantasize about men and rape.

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