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#510576 - 05/17/17 12:13 PM Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me?
Chris4TheMill Offline


Registered: 05/16/17
Posts: 117
Loc: NY / NJ Area
Hi guys,

I’m new here. You’ll hear more of my story in coming days, but for now I have a set of questions for you and would be grateful for any input.

First, a little context / background:

In terms of long-term abuse – and sheer viciousness – the worst were my mother and my step-mother. My aunt was also very cold and critical, and said many things that deeply hurt and emasculated me.

When I sought out relationships with girls my own age and as an adult, with women, what I got was a lot of rejection, lots of lying and dishonesty, lack of respect, and more awful behavior.

Female bosses and some co-workers have also been abusive to varying degrees. I trusted my most recent boss in many ways, and she ended up getting rid of me to advance herself. This happened in October 2016.

In the past decade, there were maybe 3 women who initially showed some interest and acted nice and caring, but once they found out that I have a disability (I have one of those “invisible” disabilities) or something else about me they didn’t like, they immediately cut me off. As in, disappeared with no explanation. It was hurtful and rude.

I know “ghosting” is common now, but it is also cowardly, awful behavior – whether men or women do it.

To date, I’ve never had a serious long-term relationship with a woman. I am in my mid-50’s now, never married, no kids.

My questions include:

1) I know we are all imperfect and fail, but intent matters. Are all women at their core just selfish, conniving, manipulative, and untrustworthy? Is their initial “niceness” (if they demonstrate any) just a ruse?

2) Do any take responsibility for their actions and try to become better people? Or are they all blind to their flaws? I hear so many horror stories from men about how their wives or girlfriends think that they (the wives and girlfriends) are perfect and that it is only the man that ever is/has the problem. I have seen and experienced this as well.

3) Are they all dishonest and do they all avoid telling you what they are really thinking? Maybe the ones who lied to me thought they were sparing my feelings – or maybe they were just afraid - but in the end it did more harm than good.

4) Do they all make hurtful comments that they know will hurt you?

I feel a lot of pain still – and shame - concerning my experiences with girls and women, especially the ones who should have cared for me (mother, stepmother, aunt). I am having a hard time working through it all, but I am working through it. I would just like to believe that not all women are as awful as my experiences with them have been. Our culture portrays them all as the victims and men as the oppressors, but I assure you, women can also be the worst kinds of monsters.

Any thoughts? How have you – as men – experienced women?

Women who are reading this are also welcome to offer their thoughts. If you think I am going too far with broad generalizations, perhaps you can suggest ways that my views and experiences can become more balanced. The fact that it hasn't happened yet makes me feel a bit....well, hopeless. It's not that I want to be hopeless though.....

Thank you for your time,

Chris

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#510578 - 05/17/17 12:26 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
Free Radical Offline


Registered: 03/02/17
Posts: 106
((Chris))

No answers. But I know the pain.

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#510581 - 05/17/17 12:34 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
Ceremony Offline


Registered: 09/14/16
Posts: 1468
Loc: Minnesota
Welcome Chris4TheMill:


Situations have a way of clouding things. I want to welcome you and hope you'll find hope for a healing journey. recovering things we've discovered are missing can be very difficult. I know.

I have participated in some discussions with women partners here on MS. There's a "Family and Friends" Forum. I thought maybe you might go read there? Family and Friends

When I read how caring the partners are, and with many of the men who have loving partners here on MS, it both saddens me about my toxic marriage, and reveals to me the desire I still have to find a loving partner.

I hope that spark will be found for you, and that the need you're seeking gets the work you want. You're worth it, all of us are worth it.

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#510582 - 05/17/17 12:40 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
physicsfriend Offline


Registered: 04/22/17
Posts: 76
Loc: Midwestern US
I guess that the simple answer to all of those is "no, they aren't all like that" but I'd much rather give you a more nuanced answer.

First, I'm really sorry that you've experienced this. It does seem sometimes (especially depending on the crowd you hang out in) that people always tend to view women as helpless victims and men as strong and impossible to victimize. It's just not true. I feel isolated by my experience because it was actually my mother and older sister that perpetuated most of the abuse against me. Most people in my particular situation came from highly patriarchal families. Because of that, in support communities, abuse by female family members is often excused as "she didn't really have a choice." While that may be valid for some cases, it wasn't for mine. In theory my father called the shots, but in practice he had little influence on my mother's choices and abuse. Similarly, my older sister was a victim in her own right, but she became an even worse abuser than either of my parents once she reached adulthood and also sexually assaulted me. It's really exhausting and upsetting seeing that consistently ignored or downplayed and seeing people who are supposed to support me (even therapists) making excuses for my abusers.

Regarding your specific questions:

1) No, but on average, men and women do deviate in the negative ways in which they get their way. Many women learn (more often than men) to be covert, passive-aggressive, or manipulative to get what they want. Men, on the other hand, are more likely to be forceful, aggressive, or domineering to get what they want. Neither of these are good things, and obviously there are plenty of men and women both who get their needs met without resorting to any of these tactics. But I do think, if you're dealing with toxic women, you're more likely to get the dishonest/manipulative sort.

2) Yes, there are definitely women who try to become better people. I know at least some. Honestly, though, I tend to be pretty cynical about any person actively working on self-improvement. It seems like a too-rare thing, for either gender.

3) Again, they're not all dishonest, but as I said, women are generally less likely to be blunt or overt than men. This may not always be intentionally malicious (often it is not) but it doesn't make it any less harmful when she behaves like this. Some regions and cultures are much worse about it too (hi from Minnesota where passive-aggressive is a fucking way of life and I HATE IT.) Seeking out friends and partners that are up-front about being blunt and honest might be helpful for you.

4) I suppose all people have made hurtful comments before, but only abusive people will a) make it a habit, and b) refuse to accept responsibility for their behavior. Women who do that are abusers, plain and simple. Emotional abuse is often just as devastating as any other form of abuse and I wish people wouldn't downplay it.

Full disclosure: I'm a transgender man, meaning I was born in a female body, but I'm a man and have transitioned to having a male body and living as a man. As such, I guess maybe I have a bit more of a peek at both ends of the gender spectrum than your average guy or gal. That said, my experiences and understandings are still just my own, not necessarily universal.

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#510585 - 05/17/17 01:11 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
Chris4TheMill Offline


Registered: 05/16/17
Posts: 117
Loc: NY / NJ Area
Free Radical, Ceremony, and physicsfriend:

Thank you all for your kindness and support as I work through this set of issues. I value your words and the courage that you show as you work through your own issues. I am looking forward to journeying with you further on this road we are traveling on...

P.S. Ceremony - I have looked at some of the posts in that forum you mentioned and do see what you are saying. I am just so cynical though that I have a hard time believing that these women are really as supportive as they seem. But that's just part of where I am right now....

P.P.S. physicsfriend - That is a great point that it is the one who makes a habit of saying abusive things that is an abuser, whereas someone else might just slip up occasionally. I think the demarcation is important and I hadn't considered that when I threw everyone into a "black or white" category.

Thanks again,

Chris


Edited by Chris4TheMill (05/21/17 02:29 PM)

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#512105 - 06/16/17 10:39 AM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2595
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Chris.

Just looking through the back catalogue of posts on this forum and came across yours.

one thing have noticed myself, especially with my own abuse is that abusive are quite aware of the intrinsic power which gender perception gives them.

During my own abuse a major theme was how I! was the bad guy, how I! was a beast, didn't understand women etc.

It is one of the things in society which is rarely recognized, especially in heavily gender biased areas like the united states.

one thing I have noticed is that the best I know reject a lot of the feminine social baggage eg self obsession, shallowness, perceived weakness just as the best men I have known reject equal amounts of society's masculine image, e insensitivity to emotions, unqualified aggression and posturing.

While my lady sis indeed extremely she is also highly honest and indeed tends to get very angry covert nastiness.

I can say no, not all women are as you describe, by some entirely weird process I do not understand myself (certainly not the conventional one), I am married to a woman who is anything but as you mention, however it is a shame that so many abusive women can get away with behaving as you describe.


one thing I will say, is t hat with England (and especially among university students), tends to be a more liberal and less polarized area anyway, I did have a habit of attracting female friends, indeed probably %70 of my friends have been female.One person once described me as the least sexual man she's ever met, probably because I was too busy being abused as a teenager to pick up on all the usual conventions and sexual politics and so just treated people of either gender as they were.

Perhaps this is something you might consider, eg, not thinking of any woman you meet as a woman! just as a person, or even as a man.

This might not help you find a partner, even if your looking for one, but it might be a good way of separating the manipulative arse holes.

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#512129 - 06/16/17 02:47 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
Chris4TheMill Offline


Registered: 05/16/17
Posts: 117
Loc: NY / NJ Area
Luke,

Thank you for circling back to this post, I really appreciate it. I think you have offered some really good insights. I will reflect on some now, and further ponder others.

I believe you are spot on when you say that abusive women "are quite aware of the intrinsic power which gender perception gives them."
When I look back at some of the things that have happened, I see that in bits and pieces, maybe not the whole picture yet, but there is definitely a lot there.

That would certainly explain why some of them were able to get away with such longs stretches of abuse. Another thing I would add to that is the concept of the weak male who allows these women to get away with awful things and does not hold them accountable out of his own self-interest. For example, my dad has always been weak when it comes to women and he always made excuses for my mother, his girlfriends, my aunt, or stepmother. He let them get away with things because he didn't want to upset his own applecart, i.e. what he was getting from them relationally, financially, sexually, or otherwise.

The fact that you also mentioned knowing men and women who reject the stereotypical societal norms is also encouraging and something that I can identify with.
My male friends are all ones that are not into the macho posturing, insensitivity and aggressive behavior. Most of them do watch sports which I don't do, but for them it is one interest of many. Also over the years I have been dropping a lot of the desire or need to fit in with the male stereotype. It just doesn't suit me, but it was always tempting because that seemed to be what a lot of women like.

Your stories about your own experience with your wife are encouraging to me. I am sure that any relationship is not going to be perfect "sunshine and roses" all the time, but what is important is having someone who work with you as a team and be committed to working on things together.

As to your recommendation of just seeing and treating women and men as people, well...I have actually done that most of my life, and to be honest now believe I need to modify that. The problem with that for me has been that I have always been just the "friend" with women, and then if you ever want to take that further, they cannot see it because they do not see you as a romantic or sexual being at that point. There is even a name for this, it is called being "friendzoned." I'm tired of it.
Anyway, these are some things I am working through now.

Thanks again though for taking the time to share your insights and experiences, which are all so valuable to the discussion.

Best,

Chris (aka "C4TM")

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#512137 - 06/16/17 03:40 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
Can_I_Do_This Offline


Registered: 05/17/17
Posts: 130
Loc: California
Chris,

May I kindly suggest Googling a life coach with YouTube videos named Coach Corey Wayne. This guy gets it, he has been invaluable to me in regaining the necessary balance of being "a nice guy" and being "a man with his own vision."

Because of my childhood issues causing me to be a people pleaser, I tend to attract women who see me as something to be exploited. Women like that will give you a million red flags and tests -- mine did, and I failed them all 'cause I didn't know anything.

Now there is no way on Earth any woman is going to fake me into being taken advantage of. I've studied, please believe. It takes a lot of time to get my boundaries in place and to know exactly what to look for with regard to questionable women.

The main thing is always judge them by their actions and not their words. Women can talk a good game but actions mean everything.

Try Coach Corey, it's free and he offers amazing, solid advice. All the best.
_________________________
My Truth Outweighs Your Disorder

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#512180 - 06/17/17 10:46 AM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2595
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Chris.

I really am not sure about the "friend zone" mentality thing. Again of the successful couples I know were very much friends first, could share interests and be honest with each other and the romantic end of love came later.

Usually for me, I'd fall in love with a female friend, then have absolutely no idea how to make things progress, or any idea that anyone had ever wanted! things to progress, this was until my lady, who is literally my best friend as well as being my wife, and the circumstances under which we got together are so profoundly amazing to me they boarder on the miraculous.

for female friends though, I can say it was one of the things that helped me, after being a teenager surrounded by girls who were bent very nasty, very abrupt physical abuse and public sexual humiliation, and were quite free to play the gender card to effectively stop me from stopping what happened, I was quite amazed that as a young man at university I encountered girls who did not behave like that but who I could just relate to as people and usually treated me the same way.

Same pretty much goes for male friends, particularly around a university where I tended to run into people with wide enough interests and views to be accepting, indeed it's probably the only time in my life when I've felt to be really part of a community, and indeed a respected part at that, and that was a community very much of people of both genders.

Unfortunately things since leaving university haven't been as good, but I've talked about that elsewhere, and that isn't so much a gender thing as the fact society is just scummy.

Luke.

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#512201 - 06/17/17 06:48 PM Re: Are ALL women this awful? Or is it just me? [Re: Chris4TheMill]
greenwizard Offline


Registered: 02/11/17
Posts: 331
Loc: PA
My track record with women hasn't exactly been the best either. First there was my mother who put her own interests before me for the most part. Then there was my first girlfriend. She manipulated the crap out of me, and I let her because I was so eager to please, and when she did see fit to dole out affection I lapped it up because I craved it.

My second girlfriend, well... Like you, I have an 'invisible disability'. And like you, when she found out about the problems I faced she ghosted me. I think people do that because they don't like confrontation. It's easier to not answer calls than it is to tell a person you don't like them anymore to their face.

I did manage to get very lucky with my fiance though. She's very loving, and tries to be understanding and supportive. At times I drive her nuts and it causes arguments, but over all things are good. So no, not all women are like that.

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