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#48781 - 12/22/04 04:23 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
My view is that we ( the mods ) should not become the 'thought police'

I am against editing or moving a post unless it is offensive towards another person or disruptive to MS.

We already do as LostCowboy suggests, we move posts to the 'Moderators Forum' where we as a team make a decision on it, and I hope we always inform the poster about what we're doing and why.

Is the decision always going to be right one? possibly not, but we're always open to discussion. And we are here to HELP, not control.

Given the subject we're discussing there is always going to be sexual discussion, and this can also give us problems.
What 'language' do we use to describe what happened to us?
Sometimes clinical language doesn't convey what we feel about the act, 'anal sex' tells it like is, but if someone is angry about it does 'fucked' fit the bill better?
I think that is best left to the poster, and if it's graphic then post a 'trigger warning' at the head of the post.

I don't want to see lively discussion stifled here, and as long as we remember that everyone is entitled to an opinion that might not be the same as ours then we'll get along just fine.

Out there in the 'real world' we face disagreement and arguments all the time, and we have to deal with it.
If we resort to name calling and threats then we stand a chance of getting hit or arrested, maybe both.
But neither can happen here, so arguments quickly degenerate into vicous name calling and either a suspension or an outright ban.

My personal view is that TOLERANCE should be our goal. We should learn to walk away from our computer for a short while, go make a cup of coffee, BEFORE we respond in anger to something that upsets us.

If that doesn't work tell a Mod, don't throw all the toys out of the pram, tell us what grieves you and we will hopefully be able to sort it.
There might be compromises to be made, but that's got to be better than fighting.


Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

#48782 - 12/22/04 04:42 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
unknownsoldier Offline

Registered: 09/29/03
Posts: 105
Loc: Northwest
I am in a hurry, so if someting here seems blunt, I'm sorry.

I understand that there needs to be a level of safety, and if most of the men who come here want these changes I will abide by them.

But... I would prefer more tranparency to the deleting process, leaving an indicator that something was deleted, or a note of explanation, something like that.

I personally would rather be responsible for letting the mods know that a post is objectinable, rather than having everything filtered for me. Something in me objects to being monitored so strictly. Making posts just vanish doesn't really teach the poster anything. Safety that's enforced by censorship isn't really a safety that I want. If I post something that is offensive, or maybe that someone misunderstands, I would want a chance to hear why and either apologize and or clarify what I was trying to say. I know that there's so many emotions about these topics, but we still have to have our own, adult selves deciding what we are going to say.

As for editing our own posts, I would rather have that right, and maybe have the standard should be to leave a note saying why. Maybe people should be encouraged to, instead fo deleting, make another post about why they wanted to delete it, or how their opinion or perspective has changed.

I definitely respect the mods and think they do a great job of smoothing over the bumps. I just don't want it to be too smooth. The bumps are part oft eh learning process for exercising different skills.

take care.

#48783 - 12/22/04 04:52 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
reality2k4 Offline

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6845
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think the deleting of posts should have a marker.

For instance, if I post something and can't find it, I wondererd whether I did post it in the first place!!!

Confusion can certainly set in here, I'm sure I responded to that! Hmmmmmmmmm, meant to, but maybe I didn't = GRrrrrrrrrr.....

Not knowing is sometimes HELL!


Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

#48784 - 12/22/04 05:27 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
ak Offline

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 1491
I was not going to come back here. At all. And I do not trust right now. It is unfair to anyone new here, I know, and that is my guilt. But I will not trust any new names here for a long time, and any new names if I am in chat room, I will be checking the IP addresses. Due to the 'friendship' I thought I have with this person, this whole thing of lies, threats and improper finding and using of personal information have me scared, upset and angry even some. But I am awake now, to manipulation and abuse he did to me while he try to control me. And I realize, it is not most people who do these things.

I have been coming to this site for almost a year. In that year, I have seen major situation like this three times. One was a woman who come here in beginning of year, to try to understand her past boyfriend. She come into chat room, disrespect many people there, then post in the friend and family forum of how these angry men must be possible abusers themself because they become angry with her. She was sent away of here and I do not think been back. Then, in March I think, there was a writer who come here pretending to be a young teenage boy. That person also post as the boys parents few times. That was much more difficult situation, when it is show to be lies, because a younger child get more at the hearts of people here, and they 'invest' quickly. Now is this one, and this one is quite difficult because it involves a person who have been member here for 8 or 9 months (he come near end of the situation in March, I think), and people feel they should know him better then this. So people feel more betrayed, because again, they been more invested. (I should say, this just is how I am seeing it, not to say how people should feel or how they are feel of it).

It is harder for me to be not emotional with this, because it is something that affect me more then I will say here. But I do learn from it, very much. And to this, much as I respect David, I do not know that sensering posts is answer. As I say, there only three situations here in last year that I think were this big, and first one was over in two, three days. There have been few other situations with impact, as they were were of members arguing with each other, that cause some disruption, but not so crazy as this one.

Most the people who post here are smart, are polite and decent with each other. Most are 'real' people, not the 'sock puppets' mentioned in other thread. Most are mature enough to ignore someone or respond in a more polite manner if someone disagree with them. We are all adults here, we have no one posting here that is less then 18 years age right now. I just think that we should be responsible to behave appropriate, and we should be responsible for our actions here.

And also, to see such behavior of someone, it due definitely show the true character of that person. Because this person, even after I am hurt by them, I give second chance, because I had to feel good within myself, and how I deal with it. But to give third chance just will make me be idiot. And that will not happen. Because I seen the true character now. And it is character that disgust me.

I do think that a time limit on editing posts is a good idea. Although the person who most would do that, edit posts to make others look stupid, is gone now. But whoever say that a few minutes is long enough to read again the post and see if it is what we want to say is enough. It take me so long to write out a post, normaly I will have it right in spelling, or so close as I will get. If we want to add something to a post, we can just post something else to it.

Don't moderators already have ability to delete our posts? I think that is safe. I just do not know I would feel safer here if they are doing it more often. We all here have been hurt, and have all had things bad in our lives. But I do think we need to be responsible for how we behave here.

I am sorry, I know this is long post, and it say a lot and not maybe make it in sense so much. But I am having hard time with how I am feeling on all this.


#48785 - 12/22/04 05:58 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
In reality the Mods delete or edit very little here, and I know they do try and notify the poster when we do, sometimes we will also put an explanation on the edited post.
It's something that we will try and do everytime from now on.

Most edited posts are done by the poster themselves, often with no explanation at all, which can lead to a lot of misunderstanding.

At the bottom of the edited post you should see "Message edited by Lloydy" or whoever it was that did the editing.


Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

#48786 - 12/22/04 06:03 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
James_dup1 Offline

Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Yes I have been here for about 3 years and the mod's really do not edit or delete post. And I have been part of some that sould probley been in the least locked, but they let us vent even when that vent was directed at the powers to be here.

So to the Mod's, Thank you!


I have more issues than Rolling Stone!

#48787 - 12/22/04 06:06 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
I agree that a short, factual note of why a post was deleted or edited by the moderator would help greatly in smoothing any suspicious feelings.

I'm an infrequent poster on a hobby forum and posted there one day after an absence of some months. Came back later and my post was gone. I thought it strange so posted again. Came back later and post was gone. Posted again, and finally got an e-mail from the mod saying he had deleted the posts because they did not include my name in the signature line (a requirement of that forum). It would have been nice if they had at least simply informed me after the first faux pas that I needed to correct it. Things like that on a forum like MS could quickly spiral out of control due to the already suspicious nature many of us have as abuse survivors. Open communication about issues and what it being done and why will help greatly dispell any fears or angers over editing or deleting of posts.

Thanks again, Dave, for all y'all do here.


#48789 - 12/22/04 09:33 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
TJ jeff Offline

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3578
Loc: Northern Wisconsin
I have been a member of this forum for less than one year - but I have been a member on a few other abuse survivor forums for over 3 years now - on all of these forums I have seen fights between members - no site is perfect - most of the fights escalated out of control because of misunderstandings between the people involved and a lack of policys in place to control such problems from escallating out of control.

How to solve the problem??? - well, that really is a very difficult question...(I'll only add my opinion of what has worked at other sites) - I think it is good that the Mod's here already move posts that are questionable to the 'Moderators Forum' for further review - Would it be possible to put in at the botom of the moved post 'moved to Moderators Forum for review' - just so that people would know without question what had happened to the post - and then after it's moved it should be a private email matter between the Moderators and the offending person to resolve the problem contained within the post

Editing??? - Best left to the person who originaly wrote the post - To edit someones 'feelings' is a job that no Moderator can possibly do perfectly - if something is in question that you think needs editing it should be brought to the attention of the moderators who should PM the poster and between them privatly a solution should be agreed upon (often it is as simple as just changeing a few words or adding a line or two to further explain the feelings of why something was said in the fashion in which it was said)

Deleting??? - should only be reserved for outright malicious personal attacks (Mods need to explain to the poster the reasons for which the post was deleted and give consequences for such further actions)(I have seen other sites do a 1,2,3 policy in banning people who maliciously attack others - not sure what the standard is here before someone is banned) - feelings do need to be expressed - it's all part of the healing journey that we are all on - dissagreements will happen (just stop and think for a minute about all of the disagreements that you've had with others outside of this forum in the past week) - dissagreementas are part of the learning process of life - we just need to make sure that there are policies in place to keep dissagreements from escalating into malicious 'word fights'

Being a Moderator of any forum is not an easy job - and to be a moderator of a forum of such a delicate topic makes the job 100% harder - My hats off to the Mod's here for the good job that they do...

Just my nickles worth...

TJ jeff

Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

#48790 - 12/22/04 10:38 AM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Leosha Offline

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Originally posted by Bronco:

Though I am fairly new here, I think this whole foolishness could have been avoided had such a policy been in place.

Begging pardon here, but this 'whole foolishness' could have been avoided had stupid people not come here lying their ass off.

I trust the moderators here. They are intelligent men (and one lady, pardon) who make good decisions under difficult situations. They already have power to do their best to keep here safe, and they do that the best they can. I do not know that more 'policing' and deleting will really keep this site safe. I think many situations have shown that censorship is only that.

But I am all for moderators taking more control here right NOW. Because I think tighter control is required right now. I do agree that we are adults here and should be able to behave as such. But at times, there will be to much emotion involved to be so rational as we should be. I know I have been quite guilty of that, and I do apologize.

I guess I just put my trust right now in the moderators, and whatever decision they make, I will trust it to be right.


Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

#48791 - 12/22/04 09:15 PM Re: Would this restore confidence, trust?
Aden Offline

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
There seems to be only one person who has the right to pontificate. Unfortunately, even he is not infallible. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could find a source of indisputable truth?

Who among us has the righteousness to censure our earnest brethren? Is there a Moderator with intentions so pure that they could without accountability delete an others heart felt thoughts? Of course! And that is a presumptuousness which is the danger to your plan.

Man! I can pontificate with the best of them. Does that mean I have nothing worth saying? What is the standard to be? Who would you suppress and for what reason? I have seen the arrogance of certain Moderators in their quest for equilibrium.

Being told what I thought and how I felt “didn’t matter” was the deepest offense. Peace at all costs and justice be damned.

You are correct that this should be a place for healing and that petty bickering should have no part of it. Yet for those of us who have been abused, to act openly in self defense is a necessary lesson in the healing process. My own problem here began not with Moderators deleting posts but from an individual deleting and editing his own post to draw me into a discussion and cause me to appear foolish and ill willed. It looked like I was screaming curses in the wind against the most beloved of blessed souls. The general consensus among Moderators and multiple personalities was that I should just shut up and go away.

I didn’t go away. But I got a lot quieter, offering less help and seeking none. Mostly I just became a lurker, watching and waiting.

So, I guess this is my real question; can you deal fairly with the abuses that occur here? Not blindly, blithely or with insensitivity, but with an eye for rational justice. Can you forgo the desire to impose a perfect peace for the sake of fairness?

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