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#4721 - 06/20/05 01:43 AM Re: Please don't go.
Maynard Offline

Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 49
I, like Jasper, have had a change of opinion to my original post on this subject. Like I said above I am new here and I am still very confused about my own SA. The main thing I fealt is that I wanted Ranger to get the help he needs, and still do, but have come to the conclusion that this is not the place. I believe sinking has giving more then enough resources for Ranger to find help. The thought of losing a victim over a perp is just flat out not right, even if he was SA. This site is for us and not them, and I believe that is the bottom line. This posts is taking too much time and energy away from people that need help.

"Men often become what they believe themselves to be. If I believe I cannot do something, it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe I can, then I acquire the ability to do it even if I didn't have it in the beginning." Mahatma Gandhi

#4722 - 06/20/05 02:50 AM Re: Please don't go.
ShyBear Offline

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
I, too, have been communicating about MS safety issues with the mods, admins & BOD, plus an ordinary MS member who has become a buddy. He pointed out to me that the MS management is spread across 3,000 miles and 4 time zones, and I remember how tough that was to deal with when I worked for a company with a similar geographical spread.

So, I think the management is diligently working to do the right thing, which takes *time* given their circumstances.

Also, IMO, no offender has any place here.

Over many years, women friends who were active in feminist politics have taught me the *need* for them to have separate, secure, Women-Only spaces, free off men. The 19 years of my sobriety have made me profoundly grateful for AA-Only spaces, free of non-alcoholics, and I would not be alive today if it were not for Gay-Only spaces, free of straights. Consequently, I think MS needs to be free of perpetrators.

(Edited to correst a spelling error)

#4723 - 06/20/05 04:23 AM Re: Please don't go.
Leosha Offline

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Originally posted by delta.tetra:

8. What happened to the man this thread was adressed to? Nobody asks
about that. Did he stay or did he go?
The person I know of remains away from here for now.

I originally posted this in a thread on the member side last week. As it is my own words, I am reposting it here. I am trying to maintain a personal balance for myself. Inside, 100%, I feel that no offender belongs here. But, I am trying to not generalize all perpetrators simply because of what I know of my own. Some truly do have remorse, possibly. That is why my words perhaps seem some 'middle of road'.


Part of response may trigger.

I have been reading, but 'staying out' of things, as I just have major issues my own right now, which I choose to not bring here, for reasons my own. But, there is few things I want to say, respectful as possible.

First, I do not think there is anyone who do not appreaciate the moderators here, the hard work they do, the fact it is only voluntary, and that they are all survivors also with their own issues and triggers. Roland, Dave, any other moderators, honestly I think no one is attacking you and your hard work. If they do, I am sure it is out of fear, anger and frustration. That do not make personal attacks right.

Personal? I think the whole issue could have been avoided a month and half ago when this person first come here and post that they have offended against someone also. It was very honest and courageous to do that. But it seems it would have been much easier, then, to say 'We are sorry you are a survivor. But also, you are a perpetrator, and as such, we can not have you here. Our sympathies, here are some resources, good luck'. But, because he is a seemingly remorseful person, he is allowed here to post of free will, and seemingly until yesterday, was quite appropriate-seeming in those posts. We as a site have set a precedent by allowing him to remain. Now that members are upset with his presence (Yes, some were previously, I am aware), it is 'sticky' to take care of.

Yes, he is a survivor. But he is also a perpetrator. I am willing to say that at least 90% of the other survivors here, no matter how insecure or how much hatred they have had for themself, no matter how out of control and crazy they feel, they have NOT perpetrated upon another person. That is a big difference between 'him' and most of the rest of 'us'. And no matter how decent, honorable, and well-intentioned this person may seem, he still is also one of 'them', one of the people responsible for the other 2500 people to be at this site. It is difficult to feel that he is not here 'as' a perpetrator as well as survivor. That he is not 'getting' something from people being hurt and triggered. And we'll never know that is not the case.

I realy have not had problem with his presence here. Better the perp you know then the perp you don't, I guess is how I feel.

However, I do worry that to allow him to remain here, it can set a difficult precedent. Because, it is a fact that majority of 'perps' have been abused themself. That would qualify them to be here, as survivors. However, we know that not all perpetrators have remorse. Not all perpetrators turn themselves in, and willingly confess to their crimes. Who is to say the next perpetrator/survivor here does not have such noble intentions as to just heal from what is done to them? Now no, someone who is here to try to 'hook up' with some vulnerable member is not likely to admit openly to having been a perp. But it is similar thought process. Allow one survivor/offender here, allow them all, then ban them one by one as they misbehave here.

I am not going to threaten to leave or leave, although I have great respect for the members that I know of who have made that choice. It can feel unsafe here right now. It can feel that the 'perp' is protected while the legitimate survivors and victims are not. And this is a difficult week to be feeling that.

I trust that the right decision will be made, and I am sure it is a difficult one. My sympathy and support to the administrators and moderating staff, and I am grateful the decision is not mine.

I wish everyone well.


By the way, someone who leave here, I am hoping temporarily, due in part to this situation, is someone extremely close to me, who I care very much about. Probably the person here I am closest to, not to diminish anyone else here. So I DO feel the significance of this specific issue, trust me. I just am attempting to keep my words and thoughts civil, because I have been quite blunt, to the point of rudeness, at times, and am attempting to not be like that. I am sorry if how I speak does not seem supportive to the majority here. But truly I am.


Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

#4724 - 06/22/05 06:12 AM Re: Please don't go.
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5781
Loc: Lyons, CO USA
Just a quick note to let you know that I've drafted a response to this controversy and I'm waiting for feedback from the mods and administrators before posting it.

This is a difficult position and although some feel it may be a "no brainer", it is a bit more complicated than merely making a policy of "no perps".

Although I will probably catch some flak with the response, please bear in mind that this has been a difficult discussion and we want our members to feel safe here.

Should be posted Wed some time.


Blissfully retired after 35 years treating sexual abuse

#4725 - 06/22/05 07:02 AM Re: Please don't go.
Soccer Kid Offline

Registered: 10/22/04
Posts: 273
Loc: Missouri

Deviant of Many Talents

"Reality is just an illusion."

#4726 - 06/22/05 10:00 AM Re: Please don't go.
ShyBear Offline

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 149
Loc: The American South
Soccer Kid wrote ~ I haven't had the time to read all of the posts in this discussion ...
If you had, you'd know that member "Sinking" posted a detailed list of eleven resources for perpetrators, so it's not like we're taking away Ranger's *only* support. Since we survivors have spent our entire lives in the shadow of our perpetrators, it is essential we have ONE place we can call our own.

#4727 - 06/22/05 10:41 AM Re: Please don't go.
lostcowboy Offline

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 798
Loc: Rhode Island
Hi all,
1. First let me say that Rangers last message was all about saying good bye to the people on this board. So all the debate is wasted!

2. The only reason Ranger went into detail was because someone asked him to. The only reason he made it public was he thought more than one person wanted to know what he did to the boy. He was right, I at least wanted to know what he did to the boy.

As far as I can see Ranger only made two mistakes. One he went into more detail than we wanted to know. Not only did he tell us what happened, but he gave us what distorted ideas of love he had at the time. I think this is what TRIGGERED everyone, who had been in a similar SA experience.
The other thing he did that was wrong was where he posted it. He posted it in the Male Survivors forum. It was then moved to the unmoderated forum, which in my opinion was still the wrong place for it. In my opinion the only correct place for the post is attached to his survivor story in the Survivors stories forum.

"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

#4728 - 06/22/05 07:37 PM Re: Please don't go.
Sinking Offline

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 577
Loc: Took my ball and went home.
Maybe should post a link for perp resources on the home page. Obviously they need help too, if for no other reason than to protect their potential victims from themselves. A list of links to organizations such as Stop It Now might help steer perps away from this site and would offer them resources they need as well.

I must say I am uncomfortable with the decision that has been made. When I was in the early stages of recovery and my PTSD was acting up all the time, perps were everywhere, in my head, following me in my car, even hiding behind the shower curtains in my home. I felt safe then that there were no perps in my therapist's office (although I was cautious of my therapist at first) and there were no perps here. Apparently that will not be the case anymore. And though I will still visit this site for the time being, I will be much more guarded with what I say and to whom I say it. Up come the defenses.....

#4729 - 06/23/05 12:08 AM Re: Please don't go.
PiePro Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Montreal
Please I need a safe place.

Zero tolerance for perps, please.

#4730 - 06/23/05 04:20 AM Re: Please don't go.
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I'd just like to make a couple of points.

Ranger isn't the first self confessed offender that has used MS openly, and I know of one offender / survivor that used MS without disclosing his offending. ( He's long gone )

It's been a very difficult issue to resolve,and the Admin and Mod's have spent a great deal of time and effort on this.
The main reason for taking so much time is that the discussion has gone on for a long time on the forums, and we've received so many PM's, that we needed to take everyones views into account.

It is a very emotive subject, and one that has been discussed with a great deal of sympathy and understanding from both sides.

Thank you all for the support that you've shown the Moderators during this difficult time.


Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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