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#453113 - 11/10/13 08:05 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: jas4159]
tbkkfile Offline

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 387
Loc: Surrey, United Kingdom
So let me get this right then - to forgive is to pardon my perps, but in the meantime my life's been fucked up, am I missing something here?

#453114 - 11/10/13 08:15 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: jas4159]
Jacob S Offline

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 687
Loc: where the shadows lie
Personally, I don't find the word "forgiveness" useful. It is true that if you hold onto something, you continue to give power to it. So you have to find a way, for your own sake, of not letting it rule you. Justice is not a guarantee in this life. Vengeance is not guaranteed. Healing can't depend on anything you can't actually control. The goal is to live a life where the abuser is not a big factor one way or the other. Don't have to use words like forgiveness, pardon, or anything else that doesn't help you. Just whatever helps you step beyond the shadow of the past. That's my philosophy anyway.
I am a veteran of the soul wars.

#453119 - 11/10/13 10:45 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: jas4159]
don64 Offline

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 1106
I don't care about what words people use. Words are certainly the only means we have of communicating here. There seems to be a universal law, not a human law, but a law of energy that the kind of energy I put out is the kind of energy I get back. If I put out blame in the physical world, I attract blame. If I put out anger in the physical world, I attract anger. If I put out love in the physical world, I attract love It seems to be a practical way of looking at things. My parents sexually abused, physically abused and tortured me from infancy to 3 1/2. They psychologically abused me from then on. My father most likely raped me at age 8. The memories are still completely blocked. At 53, when I began to remember the abuse, I severed all relations with my family of origin. My entire family is very, very disturbed. For me, the beginning of healing was to sever ties with them. I am no longer connected physically to that abusive system and do not get triggered by it any more. These past 11 years have allowed me to clean out myself substantially, and I have no longer needed to hold on the energy of my abusers. But I have expressed enormous amounts of rage screaming, cursing, beating pillows, kicking pillows and journalling with venom. It has worked for me.

I release my rage, hatred, vengeance, etc., in the privacy of my own psyche. Releasing and venting my resentments and hatreds have been critical to me moving through them. And, they still come up and I still release them when they do. In the end, I want to attract love. I have not had the experience of that happening when I send anger out into the world. No problem releasing in my own private space. No problem venting and raging here. This feels real healthy and real appropriate here. But, I feel discernment is critical for personal safety. If I know what I'm consciously sending out is going to come back at me, that would make a difference to me. Don
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

#453123 - 11/10/13 02:20 PM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: Rich918]
jas4159 Offline

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 483
Loc: New Hampshire
"These verbs mean to refrain from imposing punishment on an offender or demanding satisfaction for an offense."

This is from the first link you mention. I am sorry if I offened you. I didn't mean to do that. However,being where i am in life and recovery. The above definition fits my meaning of forgiveness for me.

Same site: par·don (pärdn)
tr.v. par·doned, par·don·ing, par·dons
1. To release (a person) from punishment; exempt from penalty: a convicted criminal who was pardoned by the governor.
2. To let (an offense) pass without punishment.
3. To make courteous allowance for; excuse: Pardon me, I'm in a hurry. See Synonyms at forgive.

1. The act of pardoning.
2. Law
a. Exemption of a convicted person from the penalties of an offense or crime by the power of the executor of the laws.
b. An official document or warrant declaring such an exemption.
3. Allowance or forgiveness for an offense or a discourtesy: begged the host's pardon for leaving early.
4. Roman Catholic Church An indulgence.

But none of this is really the point. In our world we all have to define what forginess means for ourselves. and it is probably differnt for everyone. Which is why i find this thread so interesting. It is helpful to me to see how others view forgivenss. So please dont' think i am challenging you becase i am not. I completely respect your opinion and I would not try to change your mind.

I will not lie to you I still strugle intellectually with the my concept of forgivness. IN my mind forgivness has noting to do with forgiveing my abusers for thier crimes. But a lack of forgivness has everything to do with keeping me tied to them and by default allowing them to still have infuence and control over me emotionally. in my mind I came to a point where i no longer needed or wanted to punish them. Don't miss unerstand me. if i could punish them i would, And if i couldn't then the longer I allowed my wants and needs for punishment and justice to torment me thn this would only prolong my pain and suffering, becasue these things were never going to happen. (They got a way with it - it is taht simple for me.. ) and thereby keepong me connected to my abuser and letting that connnection have a level of control over me. And I was not going to allow anything to stand in the way of my recovery. So is this forgivin? I don't know, I think it is. But i forgave for me and only me. We all learned early on that wolrd is not a very fair place. And it still isn't. So for me in the end forgiving was my way of letting it all go and fix what i can and forget about what I can't change of fix. and thet awas my past.

I like this thread

Edited by jas4159 (11/10/13 02:29 PM)


#453130 - 11/10/13 04:38 PM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: jas4159]
Still Offline

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 7011
Loc: FEMA Region 1
This Post is NOT directed toward ANY prior post. This is just one of my legal lectures.

If forgiveness means the perp continues to live outside of prison, you are wrong-headed in the foregiveness.

CSA is a crime against the victim, his/her extended people/fam, and SOCIETY.

When I see churches (of all types) do the forgiveness shit the way they do, I report the incident to the police myself (twice now). When a person is charged with a crime in this nation, the prosecutor represents "The People." NOT THE VICTIM. People frequently don't get that. If you don't believe me...go research it.

NO MAN is a judge and jury for a public hazard. To "forgive" and not press've got future victims on your hands should the perp take another child...and you will NEVER know for certain. So he either must turn himself in, you report him for charges or he removes himself from the living are wrong in letting him loose!!

I also see churches and "Christians" forgiving a perp when and where THEY were not the victim. You can see that on the TV news at least once a week.

If the "forgiveness" ends up in not reporting or prosecuting, all knowledgeable parties CAN be held criminally liable in some jurisdictions.

So...forgiving them was only for ME and MY heart. I still chatted with the DA for two hours.

Edited by Still (11/10/13 04:40 PM)

#453132 - 11/10/13 04:46 PM Re: What is forgiveness? [Re: don64]
jas4159 Offline

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 483
Loc: New Hampshire
very well said and true for me as well.


#453174 - 11/11/13 02:40 AM Re: What is forgiveness? [Re: jas4159]
victor-victim Offline

Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 6379
Loc: š¯’Ŗ š¯’¦anada
only the abused has the right to forgive the abuser,
and only for the abuse they personally received.
in my opinion,
i cannot forgive someone for a crime committed against a third party.
i can only forgive them for any damage the crime has caused me.

forgiveness is a private personal matter.
it cannot be forced. it cannot be faked.
it does not require any involvement whatsoever with the perp.
proactive programs promoting prevention, child protection, crime punishment, pardon...
that is public domain and duty.

so, i could privately and personally forgive a pedophile who has abused me or someone i love, but
that does not relieve me of my public duty as a member of society, to protect children. from potential perpetrators.
which may require the use of restraint or confinement,
which may require force with the possibility of violence and injury to the abuser.

this is about the best way i can explain the way i look at it.


#453202 - 11/11/13 11:21 AM Re: What is forgiveness? [Re: jas4159]
Onesimus75 Offline

Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 158
Loc: Minnesota
I'm a medieval style Christian so this is way off of what others believe, which is their belief.

so, as a disclaimer, I know that this is radical.

I believe that forgiveness is the removal of the debt, the thing in the way of relationship. So what it looks like depends on what the relationship was.

Family without the debt is family.
Friend without the debt is friend
Stranger without the debt is stranger.

But sometimes the most loving thing you have to do for someone is stop them from hurting themselves or others.

But I don't think that you can forgive the unrepentant (I'm talking about changing not just saying 'sorry'). Even my God doesn't do that.

So... no quick or easy formula. Just a bit of impossible I try and live with.

Usually it doesn't matter. I don't know about the first two perps' whereabouts and #3 wants nothing to do with me so I'm off the hook. I try and pray for him when I have a flashback or what he's done messes with my day.

Under no circumstances does forgiveness mean letting anyone keep abusing me or anyone else.
We are not defined by our faults, or our wounds, but by the truth within us, which nothing can take away.

#453203 - 11/11/13 11:33 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: jas4159]
catfish86 Offline

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 832
Loc: Ohio
I just know I had to stop my anger somehow. It was destroying me even when I didn't know why I was angry.

I was told that resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other guy to die.

It is also said there is nothing more dangerous than an alcoholic with a legitimate resentment. It is imperative for me to somehow free my self of that bondage. Forgiveness is the vehicle. If it helps you any, honest forgiveness, when the offending party does not repent, heaps coals upon their head, the wrath becomes the province of God.

Edited by catfish86 (11/11/13 11:40 AM)
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

#453204 - 11/11/13 11:41 AM Re: What is forgivness? [Re: jas4159]
Onesimus75 Offline

Registered: 08/22/13
Posts: 158
Loc: Minnesota
Good point Catfish. Maybe better to say the restoration part can't ever happen without repentance and change.
We are not defined by our faults, or our wounds, but by the truth within us, which nothing can take away.

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