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#448379 - 09/27/13 01:43 AM in reply to Fascination
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
I've come across a word that I think is meaningful
that was prompted by my desire to respond to
JoeSmith's poem "Fascination".

Please go to
and look up

... angst

The first definition of the word is perhaps the best
way I've heard it described as I perceive it for myself ...
and I think it covers the sentiment you are trying to convey
in your poem Joe.

I think it applies to all of us.


I want to know what pill to take...
I want to know what exercise I have to do ...
I want to go and kneel in front of the cross in a Catholic church until my knees bleed ...

I don't care what I have to do ...

just somebody ...

please ...

tell what I have to do to fix this!

Edited by Shyshark (10/21/13 11:21 PM)
Experience is a brutal teacher.

#448384 - 09/27/13 02:27 AM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#448505 - 09/28/13 12:21 AM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
Hi Greg ...

Welcome to the "we are dweebs" club.
We have a very large membership ... including those that won't admit to it.

This is a great place to hide.
That's what I'm doing.
I find other posts intimidating ... and I don't know why.
I think it's because by putting it in a 'poetic' form it allows me to say things indirectly
which saves me from having to take responsibility for them.
Don't worry about the rhyming thing ... I just like doing it that way.
It's more of a challenge ... it helps to keeps me interested.
You'll note that everything I write is not in that form and it's not how everyone does it.
Poems are meant to be expressive.
How you do that isn't important.

I have had therapy up the wazoo ... and even though it is absolutely essential for me ...
and everybody ...
it doesn't 'fix' anything.
Thus the angst.
I hesitate to be direct in saying such things in fear of discouraging the guys who are struggling
with getting help.
I am also keenly aware that because of my age, the life I have had, and the isolation I have chosen
as a way of life ... NOW ... that it scares the hell out of the kids.
They are terrified of ending up like me ...
and because they are kids and assume they know everything ... lol ...
it's hard to convince them that life doesn't work that way.
Who I am is not who they are destined to become.

I have no problem with talking about my abuse.
I have a problem describing it.
I was so little and have so little concrete evidence to back up my story.
I know what happened at 9 and in a way it saved me.
My revered Priest stuck his hands down my pants and fondled me.
I was so utterly shocked ... because by my understand priests were supposed to be little more than eunuchs ...
that I stopped him.
So I learned that I could say no.

The big problem is that with the previous 4 guys I did not say no ... I didn't want to say no.
I liked the attention .. even at that young age I felt starved for it.
My abuse was in the form of seduction.
Flattery and coaxing and making me feel that what I was doing was alright was how it happened ...
at least with 2, 3 and 4.
I have definite recollections of them in the form of 'senses'.
Taste, touch, smell ... etc.
The sound of a hushed voice ... twilight like darkness ... the smell of old fashioned car upholstery ...
wandering around my Dad's garage trying to find something clean to wipe the stickiness off my hands
and something to drink to take the bitter taste out of my mouth ...
a pale white arm with golden hair (#2)
a pale white arm with redish blonde hair and covered in freckles (#3)
which were brothers,
being led by the hand across a grassy place on a very warm day to a place that smelled funny ...
which I now know was the fairgrounds and in a musty, dusty, empty room and the smell of nearby outhouses ...(#4)
among other things ...
which leads us to #1
I was between 3 and 4 ... closer to 3 ... and to put it simply he was a guest in our home for a few months.
My Mother had suffered yet another miscarriage and I was a handful ... my brother and sister were already in school ... and he would take me away so my mom could rest.
I have had a vision in my head my entire life ... wavy black hair ... deep brown eyes ... 5 o'clock blue shadow
and most important ... a deep cleft in his chin.
This became in adulthood my sexual ideal in a man ... especially the chin.
Things fell apart in my life at age 36 ... which jump-started the panic attacks, daytime visions (I didn't dream)
and extreme sensitivity to certain smells. (my biggest source of memory)
I can't say that I had repressed it all ... I just didn't remember it.
I went to my doctor ... who saved me ... and asked a simple question.
"Is it possible to have been sexually abused and not know it?"
He got up and came around from behind his desk, sqauted down beside me and put his arm around my shoulder and said ...
"Yes ... it is."
That began my long journey of painful discovery.
My first shrink managed to tweeze all that out of me over the span of 2 years.
Two more shrinks, a number of T's and groups all helped to confirm his findings ... and to add to them.

Of course ... that hardly tells the whole story ... but like everybody else ... it would take volumes to tell it all.

I hope that gives you at least an idea of where I come from.
My legacy was to deny my sexuality until I hurt the woman I loved with all my heart ...
to have 3 long term loving relationships with men ...
and have an uncontrollable compulsion to seek out ... be chased and caught by a man ... to have my way with him ...
and discard him almost immediately to go on to the next guy who showed me and proved to me that he desired me ...
in a one-night-stand fashion.
So I was unable to be faithful to the ones who loved me ... much less myself.

That's enough for now ... and I hope this makes sense because I am not going to proof read it.
That is a guaranteed way to ensure that I will not submit this.
Experience is a brutal teacher.

#448506 - 09/28/13 12:43 AM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
... and I would very much like to hear your story too.

Ordinarily, when someone asks to hear more details about me, I go to messaging.
Not because what I have to say about the abuse itself is more graphic ...
but because the results of it are.

Most of what I talk about is the later years of my life ... my adulthood.
It's the consequences of what happened to me that's important to me.
I couldn't help what happened ...
My failure to help what happened later is what keeps me awake at night.
Experience is a brutal teacher.

#448515 - 09/28/13 01:42 AM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#448529 - 09/28/13 04:03 AM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
Hey Greg ...
Thank for the kind comments.
I think you might taking too much Xanax ... :P

My story ... like everybody's ... is unique ...
but the same.
I often feel unworthy of being among men who suffered such horrors ...
but rest assured ...
I will accept and respect and understand without fear what you share with me ...
with us all.

I hope you are sleeping the sleep of the little boy you once were ...
carefree and happy and safe.
There was a time when that was true ...
We shouldn't forget that.
However brief ...
we were all children.
Experience is a brutal teacher.

#448592 - 09/28/13 01:49 PM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#448615 - 09/28/13 05:23 PM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
We are all the same.
We are men who were sexually abused ... period!
Experience is a brutal teacher.

#448647 - 09/29/13 12:18 AM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#448660 - 09/29/13 01:56 AM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
Hi Greg ...

... and I am overly touchy.

Truthfully ... it wasn't your view of same and different that made me angry.
I'm more than happy to argue a point. It's the only way to rethink things.
There has be something from outside ... whatever it is ... that makes you question yourself.
New ideas rarely come spontaneously from within ... there has to be a stimulus ...
which is the whole point of discussion and sharing ... to make us think "outside the box" ...
and break free from constantly saying the same thing to ourselves.
We come here as victims ... all the same ... but when we arrive we are simply persons ...
each one different.
Now ... I can see how somebody might find what I say a bit preachy ... I tend to beat a point to death,
but what took me by surprise was the reference to being patronizing.
If it was that little joke about taking too much Xanax I only meant it to mean that anyone
who thought I was brilliant had to be over medicated.
If that's what upset you I apologize.
If it was something else ... please tell me.
Otherwise ... I've reread everything I said and for the life of me ... I don't see it.

Leaving all that aside ... your story was riveting ... and familiar.
You and I have talked before.
I hope we talk a lot more because I'd like to know a lot more.
As for support and understanding ... that's not a one way street.
We walk up and down it together.
Experience is a brutal teacher.

#448663 - 09/29/13 02:27 AM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#449005 - 10/02/13 03:40 PM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
I'm glad that's all sorted out.

I encourage you to post my friend.
It's helped me enormously.
For years I've been told to write things down ... like a kind of journal ...
by T's and friends alike.
I couldn't do it ... it was just too hard.
I used to wonder why I would get so angry and frustrated and confused and discouraged every time I started to put things on paper.
I think it was because of 3 things.

It scared the bejesus out of me.

I was scared of dropping dead and have someone else read it ...

and ... even here ... ESPECIALLY here ...

It makes my skin crawl to put things down on paper or in a post because it
then becomes true ... and it's out there for
EVERYBODY to read FOREVER !!!!!!!!

It's been quite a surprise to learn that others write a lot but just can't
bring themselves to hit 'submit'.
I don't know why ... and I don't think they do either.
Some of the stuff I do put up is far worse than the things I don't.

You're not alone in that way.
I can offer no advice on how to overcome that ... other than to use your
better judgement.
Some of my stuff is just crap ... and unfortunately ... it get's put up anyway.
I've had some real doozies. :P

Something that does drive me crazy is the indifference of the vast majority of people
who come to poetry ... read ... and have nothing to say.
Amongst the regular guys and the odd outsider there is fantastic support and encouragement ...
but some things are read 3,4, 500 and more times.
Granted ... many of those numbers are re-reads ... but that still leaves a lot
of people riding the rails without paying for the ticket.

What's wrong ... cat got your typing finger?

Oh boy ... talking about rails ... I sure skipped the track here ...
... enough with the rant.

So ... you've all heard this before ... from me and some others ...
but here's goes ... before I chicken out ...

Experience is a brutal teacher.

#449010 - 10/02/13 05:58 PM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#449311 - 10/05/13 11:38 PM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
Hi Greg ...
I haven't forgotten you ... I've just been a bit pensive lately,
so am staying low in fear of jump-starting another downward cycle.
I have been running amok in 'poetry' again ...
just burning up some energy.
Experience is a brutal teacher.

#449314 - 10/06/13 12:15 AM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#449342 - 10/06/13 02:15 PM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#449361 - 10/06/13 07:34 PM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
My heart is breaking for you ...

((((( Greg )))))

I knew your story.
As I mentioned ... we have spoken before ... some time ago I think ... but I never forgot you.
We just never crossed paths again until now.

I simply can't imagine what happened to you ... and like you ... I feel sick at the very thought of it.
I would guess you hear that from everyone ... even those who share your experience.

I have a problem absorbing ASA. I have never encountered it in my years of group therapy.
When I first came here I was mostly in chat, and for a long while I would constantly refer to CSA and 'inner child'.
One of the very first friends I made here was ASA and although I knew that it never dawned on me how thoughtless I was being until another ASA was in chat one day and they began to speak to each other.
I was horrified.
I felt as though ... since the very beginning ... I had been slapping my friend in the face.
Even though he was always a part of the conversation ... essentially ... he wasn't.
His situation was almost always overlooked ... we rarely spoke about ASA and yet there he was ...
talking and supporting and caring for us ... and in fact ... we were leaving him out.
Now when I go to chat I am very careful to make sure I know everybody in the the room before I use those terms ...
especially the 'inner child' concept.
They don't have one.
Having that thrown in their faces ... all the time ... must really sting.

Why am I telling you this?

Because you are like my friend.

You must feel excluded a lot because of the overwhelming number of male abuse victims here.
We ... as a culture ... find it hard to fathom.
Men can be monster and women can be horrible ... that women can also be monsters is hard to swallow.
For me ... it is the epitome of evil.
To think that my Mother ... or GrandMother ... would be capable of such betrayal stops my heart.
It goes against every fiber of my being.
I've been aware of incest from my early childhood. There were two kids that were a product of Brother/Sister rape,
but that falls under a man being the perp ... not a woman.

I'm mostly over being shocked by anything anymore.
Like the ASA I'm more used to it now.
In the end ... all I have to do is say She instead of He.

But it isn't nearly that simple is it my friend.

To get back to what you wrote ...

You are asking an impossible question ...
black or white
yes or no.

All I can say is to make a comparison.

An estimated 6.5 million Jewish people died in the Holocaust.
6.5 million stories.
I've never heard an estimate on how many Jewish people survived.

Some where utterly unable to cope and took their own lives.
Some were so devastated that they lived a crippling existence.
Some were able to somehow overcome and live a 'normal' life.

How many are we?
How many fall into 1 of those 3 categories?

As the song goes ...

" ... the answer my friend is blowing in the wind ... "
Experience is a brutal teacher.

#449366 - 10/06/13 09:24 PM . [Re: Shyshark]
JoeSmith Offline

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 129

#449371 - 10/06/13 10:52 PM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
Shyshark Offline

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 681
Loc: Canada
Hey Greg

Take a rest.

Yes ... I did make you go through it again ...
I wanted you to tell me your story directly and not as I remembered it.
Your story is not too raw. You tell it as it is without going into gory details ...
which would not be appropriate here and now anyway ... I don't think.
I don't know if you can put up a trigger warning on somebody elses original post. ??
If you do feel the need to unload some of the least pleasant details don't hesitate
to tell me ... in any way you feel is best.
It is I who thank you for having the faith and trust in me to share.
I only say what I feel as I see it .. so you never need to worry about bullshit.

I'm at peace with my demons in that I don't feel the need to drag them
from the darkness into the light.
Wooden stakes and silver bullets don't work ... :P
and what sunshine there is in my life I don't waste on them anymore.
I vent here in a general sense ... because I don't remember that much.
I center my efforts at relieving the pressure on the aftermath of my abuse ...
the root cause is too deep and pervasive to kill ...
and the past can't be rewritten ... only bitched about.

Take care.
I'm always here.


Experience is a brutal teacher.

#449419 - 10/07/13 01:15 PM Re: in reply to Fascination [Re: Shyshark]
bey Offline

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 427
Loc: canada
I dunno, its hard. But i'm surviving. And other people are too. But it isn't easy. I try to go easy on myself.
I wouldn't call myself a success story, because i've got lots of problems. But i'm still here, and i'm still going.
I don't think you have to be doomed, but I hear you and relate to a lot of what you wrote.
I guess this is growing up.

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