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#433045 - 04/30/13 05:39 PM NOT AGAIN!!!!
bodyguard8367 Offline

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""

Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/27/14 04:14 AM)

#433055 - 04/30/13 06:39 PM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: bodyguard8367]
peroperic2009 Offline

Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 3869
Loc: South-East Europe
Hang on Geoff,
based what you told us and what happened to you I hope you put some heavy limits toward your family. It could be terrible difficult to control their reach to you.
Good that you'll talk with your T about it.
When families are so toxic to own kids I guess sometimes there is nothing else left but to cut all relationships with them.

I know that you achieved so much with your therapy, believe in yourself, you are such positive force here wink

My story

#433064 - 04/30/13 08:55 PM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: bodyguard8367]
ThisMan Offline

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 778
Loc: upper south
Geoff- they tell me its okay to be angry. I felt that for a couple weeks, and now its gone. Replaced by that ambivalent feeling of wtf... no one cares anyway. I like to hear your anger. I like to know its strong and powerful and if handled in constructive ways, even healing.

You have more than enough to be angry about. I might be so bold as to suggest you keep the distance from your family of origin for a while. That is one thing I do- to keep the family of origin at a distance. Sure I missed them for a while, but my heart feels better- I was always the one on the outside, never feeling as if I belonged, even as an adult. Even when I needed them, they weren't there.

You stay strong, stay angry, and continue to heal. You have overcome so much in this life. And the greatest thing about this life is that there is always a new tomorrow. Always.

Talk with the T, express yourself and get their opinion. And as soon as my anger returns, I will join you.

For now we see through a glass, darkly.

#433065 - 04/30/13 09:04 PM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: bodyguard8367]
bodyguard8367 Offline

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1159
Loc: ""

Edited by bodyguard8367 (02/27/14 04:15 AM)

#433067 - 04/30/13 09:17 PM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: bodyguard8367]
Publius Offline

Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 444
Loc: OH
It's funny hearing ThisMan talking about when his "anger returns" because I totally get that as well. Some weeks it's more sadness, others its hope, but it wouldn't be a complete roster of CSA emotions without anger. I think it is always appropriate to feel anger about what happened to us. I am sure a lot of us have had anger negatively affect our lives in this way or that but I am sure we can all eventually reach a place where it becomes more refined at least to the point where we can recognize it without letting it ruin us. As for me, I am about two years into recovery and still pretty pissed. The weird thing is the "better" I get the more angry I become about the whole thing. It's like "wow I could have had self esteem, confidence, and happy feelings this whole time!?" I realize how much I missed out on during childhood and how much I struggle today because of it and it just ticks me off to no end. Trust me man I no that feeling of being a "hopeless case" and even though I know intellectually this is not inherently true and does not have to be the case those feelings are still pretty strong and unfortunately, for now, chronic : /
"Life is like this dark tunnel. You may not always see the light at the end of the tunnel, but if you keep moving, you will come to a better place." ~ General Iroh

#433091 - 05/01/13 12:39 AM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: peroperic2009]
BraveFalcon Offline

Registered: 02/26/13
Posts: 1231
Loc: The ATL

Hi Geoff. Please keep in mind that you should not feel obligated to forgive anyone in your family, especially when they have not even asked for your forgiveness. For them to ask for forgiveness, they would fist have to admit to having done something wrong, and it doesn't sound like any of them are about to do that, which makes your forgiveness even less an obligation still. You should not bear the burden of having to worry about forgiving someone who won't even admit that they hurt you or that their relationship with you was dysfunctional.

Also, I think you should cut them out of your life for as long as you need to, even if that means for good. Don't feel bad for not talking to them and don't worry about their feelings, because it's obvious they aren't very concerned with yours. Do what's right for you, not them. Doesn't sound like they've earned it. Take care. Peace,


#433101 - 05/01/13 02:35 AM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: bodyguard8367]
WriterKeith Offline

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 980
I am a pretty forgiving person and I do believe we are talking about an unforgivable act by these predators.

Geoff, take care of your SELF. Forgiveness is not a mandatory act, but caring for yourself is a necessary one.

#433132 - 05/01/13 12:25 PM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: bodyguard8367]
Jude Offline

Registered: 08/09/12
Posts: 1633
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: bodyguard8367
I keep thinking that I should be OK.......When someone says forgive them I just totally shut down......Anyway, that is as honest and candid as I can be.

Good work Geoff! Thanks for an incredibly honest, from the heart post. I believe that I will never be "normal" or ok. This stuff will be with me till I assume room temperature. But in the meantime, I'm learning to live with it, and find my way into some kind of a meaningful life. I believe that that is possible.

When I talk to my T about forgiveness, he tells me that forgiveness is not something you do to meet someone else's agenda. Not something on a list of "Steps To Healing" to check off. Its something that has to come from your heart, and if its not there you needn't feel guilty or less worthy. That has helped me alot.

I will remember you
Will you remember me?
Don't let your life pass you by
Weep not for the memories
Sarah McLachlan

#433143 - 05/01/13 02:24 PM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: bodyguard8367]
Lancer Offline

Registered: 07/13/12
Posts: 901
Loc: Florida
I like, Geoff, that the responses on this thread are from your regular MS buds and a great indication of the support you have. I can only add my agreement that, at the very least, you keep those family members at arm's length or better for the sake of your sanity.

You well know that's my story with the adopted mommybitch, a self-absorbed narcissist who I cut off years ago and who has, with all the drama worthy of Bette Davis, since claimed to anyone in earshot that I "broke her heart." I didn't make the connection until the recent Jason Collins announcement - and it probably sounds like a stretch - but it was as much a relief and sense of freedom I felt as #98's description of his feelings in coming out. In some ways the action of jettisoning the mommybitch was a considerably faster catharsis than my own coming out, which took years!

Little Lancer still sometimes expects Mommybitch to see her own massive, selfish failures as a parent and apologize. At those times Big Lancer has to take him in his arms, tell him the apology isn't coming, but that he's safe, protected and respected today. Yeah, you may have moments of doubt, feeling as if you've betrayed The Family or that you want to buy into their bullshit - good reason to sever the connection - but doesn't come up as often for me today. For one, you have your husband (yep, your OWN family)! Hugely important, imo.

On so-called forgiveness I think you've often read ad nauseam my thots on that. So, I'll rinse and repeat. In my experience, the whole forgiveness thing is usually touted by people who haven't a clue, don't know how to respond to your situation and just blurt out their best guess to "fix" it (a bit like Boeing's Dreamliner). Others use it because they are truly presumptuous and patronizing. Some use it to exercise psychological control the sheeple in their pews and establish their "authority". Many, many others use it to sell self-help books and CDs.

The message is the same: "You're WRONG not to forgive. There's something WRONG with YOU if you can't." Fucking great. More invalidation of my feelings. As if the first time wasn't enuf. Thanks a lot for the bullshit...and making me wrong AGAIN.

No, Geoff, you do whatever you need to do with the anger. Ain't no one perfect...even me! wink What I see in your OP, in case you haven't noticed dear brother, is a 30-year dedication to yourself and your recovery. Geoff, that's remarkable! You've gained insights in those years which you've always freely shared here on MS.

The best I've been able to do in my years is to simply understand the sick dynamic, that it hasn't changed (confirmed only this year by a couple of empathetic family members) and that I was right to get on with my life when I did. Jude's nailed it, too. I'll boil it down to "forgiveness is optional" especially with people who haven't even asked for it. You're under no obligation. No salesman will call. Yeppers, there's that ol' freedom thing again.

I'm not REALLY a Trekkie, Geoff - except for J.J. Abrams new incarnation - but I often invoke Spock or some good lines from the old series/movies. Here's one I particularly like from Shatner of all people.

#433146 - 05/01/13 03:46 PM Re: NOT AGAIN!!!! [Re: Lancer]
victor-victim Offline

Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 6387
Loc: 𝒪 𝒦anada
that little star trek video is superb.
it hit me right between the eyes.


i love the show just for pure entertainment value,
but every so often, it is shockingly insightful and poignant.

the tao of trek.

i don't know if KIRK is right or not,
but that is exactly how i feel sometimes.
i need my pain.
it tells me where the damage is, so i know where to focus my repairs.
it keeps me alert; on guard against future hazards and menaces.

no placebos and painkillers for me, please.

however... like fire... pain is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

pain - fear - anger - hate
often these lines all blur
these can guide us, but we should never let them rule our thoughts and actions.
treat them as trusted advisors, but keep the final decision for yourself.
i guess the trick is finding out who "yourself" really is.
YOU are the chief executive officer of your corporation, emotions/thoughts are the staff.
YOU are the captain of your ship, feelings/ideas are the crew.
do not tolerate mutiny.
YOU are the boss. YOU are the master. YOU make the rules. YOU set the policy.

if YOU choose not to decide, YOU still have made a choice.

Dear Geoff,

i really wish i could tell you more, to make you feel better, but your situation is so radically different from mine, that my advice may not apply.

Originally Posted By: bodyguard8367

My family is made up of an alcoholic father who was prone to violent outbursts of rage against the children. He did horrible things to the children, baby bottles dosed with alcohol to keep them quiet, "children are to be seen and not heard", he withheld food, shelter, and affection, he was a violent abuser whose ONLY saving grace was that though he beat me without appropriate clothing, he never physically had sexual contact with me.

My family includes a mother with institutional levels of denial. She stayed in an abusive violent marriage by sacrificing her children's well being. She denied both my father's abuse, my CSA and my incest. No amount of discussion or impassioned plea could secure her approval. She did not approve of my orientation, and ignored the incest and my father's abuse completely. She also committed emotional and physical child abuse on myself and the other children.

in this regard, you and i are very similar. except, my father disappeared when i was about 6 or 7 and did not resurface until i was already 16. he continued to live his own life, and for the last 40 years he has popped in and out, but remains "at arm's length" as he calls it. he drank and cheated and beat my mother black and blue more than once during my early years. she would go to the hospital, he would go to jail, we would go into custody.
he started up 3 families since he dumped me, all have failed, following the same patterns.
he no longer drinks, but he has put 3 out of 4 wives into the hospital.
i have several half and step siblings.
he is very violent and a pathological liar.
he is a workaholic who grew up in the rubble of world war two germany.
in his view, my problems are very minor.
i need to grow up and grab life by the balls, which he clearly states any time i attempt to communicate.
drop the drama, tie your shoes, go to work. that is the only advice he ever gives.
he goes to church every sunday and has a lot of money, so he is a winner in his mind.
i am poor and have employment issues, therefore i am a loser.
every time i need a "handout", he tries to give me advice.
i tell him to stick it up his @$$.
i only take advice from people i want to imitate or emulate.
this offends him, and he thinks i am stubborn and stupid.

my mother sounds exactly like the one you describe.
i have not spoken to her in years, because every conversation we have spirals into a screaming match.
she has written me off as "crazy" and "drug damaged" because i smoked marijuana when i was a teenager.
in her defense, she was raised in an incestuous, catholic/italian/native-indian family, with sisters who are aunts and nieces. her father (my grandfather) stabbed her mother (my grandmother) in front of the 7 children, and died in jail. my grandmother survived, but never recovered. she died alone, and full of hate, refusing visitors. i met her once or twice, and she called me a "hitler youth" because my father is german, and "dirty little savage" because of my native blood. and yet, she was a 300 pound squaw, round and brown, who claimed she was adopted. when she died, my mother actually pissed on her grave and bragged about it afterward. this horrified me.

i have wasted a lot of time blaming my parents.
but, i find it harder to forgive them, than it was to forgive my abusers.
i live with the constant dread/belief that they (or I) will die before we reconcile.
he says he is "too old to change".
she says there is "nothing wrong" with her.

please accept my good will, and commiseration.
i don't know you, but i love you as a brother on the road to recovery and redemption.


Never forget that, regardless of where you are at this time.


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