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#431373 - 04/16/13 01:59 AM Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3
Jacob S Offline

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 699
Loc: where the shadows lie
Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:

I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.
And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.

-- Ecclesiastes 4:1-3

Sitting in the church pew, staring up at that cross behind the pulpit. No one is on it. Of course no one is on it, this is one of those nice

friendly protestant churches. No blood or guts here. No graphic passion plays on Easter. No yelling from the pulpit. Nothing too shocking . . .

nothing at all.

The old men collecting the offering, the women in blue dresses, the pastors sitting on the pew against the wall, the young ones listening to

the children's sermon in the front. They seem at home here. They seem to believe they are protected. That Jesus on the cross protects them and

their family. Except the cross is empty. We have an invisible man guarding our children.

The rays of the electric bulbs glance across the empty candlesticks, givng us all the light we need. We wouldn't dare actually rely on candles. Let

the candlestick stand there, empty. We claim one candle can dispel the darkness, but we aren't going to take that risk.

My lips utter the remembered words of the Lord's prayer, prodded more by the collective power of other voices than by any need within me. And yet,

in my heart every statement becomes a question.

Our FATHER? Who art in heaven?
Hallowed be thy name?
Thy kingdom come?
Thy will be done on Earth?
Like it is in heaven?
Give us this day . . . our daily BREAD?
And forgive US? OUR sins? As we forgive those who have sinned against us?
Will you lead us (not into temptation, but deliver us from evil)?
If thine is the glory and the power and the kingdom forever,
What then?

The Zohar, a book not found in this pew, says "When the blessed Holy One remembers his children, who are plunged in suffering among the nations of

the world, He sheds tears into the Great Sea, and His voice resounds from one end of the world to the other." Funny, you think a voice that loud

would make a difference. What good is it to know the Divine is sad for the suffering children, if all He does is stand by and watch? The Bible

itself says they have no comforter.

The Zohar goes on: "Is it needful that these unhappy infants should die, who are without sin and without blame? In this, where is the rightful and

just judgment of the Lord of the world?"

Where indeed. The Zohar's answer is that the cries of the innocent act as intercession for those who need mercy. That God gathers them up onto


That is beautiful, but here is what it means: such a God will not prevent suffering in this world. Therefore, where do these people get their

protection? At night, they are unwilling to sit in the dark and believe in the sun. Instead, they turn on the light. Even in the glorious sunday

morning, they retreat inside and use electricity instead of the mighty burning orb of creation, Why? Because the sun is harsh and uncaring and

will not bend to the needs of man. So is the promise of God to gather up the suffering. On his timetable, after their death. If He sees them in the

basement, bleeding and raped, no he will not interrupt. He will blame and judge his creation who abuses the innocent, but he will do nothing to stop

it. Because if he wanted to, he could, or else he would not be God.

Edited by Jacob S (04/16/13 02:01 AM)
Nothing there. It subsumed me. Black hole in time and space.

And yet.

It seemed like what I was made for.

to be used.

most natural thing in the world.

#431398 - 04/16/13 07:35 AM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
nltsaved Offline

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 938
Loc: Kc,Mo

39 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.

5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.

9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?

13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.

19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”

40 The Lord said to Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”

7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.

15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?

2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus

#431419 - 04/16/13 01:54 PM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
CheerfulJohn Offline

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 149
Loc: England (at the moment)

My journey is into simple trust like a little child. When I was a little child I lost my simple trust and tried to survive. Now I'm getting it back. Simple trust that He hears our cry, that He is good and I can trust Him with the horrors I see. Now I'm getting a knowing that it really will be alright. Not just for me but for all those who choose real life not the rushed adult arrogance pretending to be life. I believe in the biblical happy ending. smile

Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

#431444 - 04/16/13 06:53 PM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
Jacob S Offline

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 699
Loc: where the shadows lie
Both of these responses boil down to "trust God." But why? Why should I trust God? Job 39 has always struck me as "because I say so. You think you're a big man? Just try something, shrimp, I dare you." In other words, it seems to say that what God does and says is right by definition. Which isn't different from what an abusive parent says.

John, would you agree that you have chosen to believe that because it is comforting to you rather than that it matches the evidence of the larger world? I'm not trying to argue here so I hope you understand that I ask that question in sincere exploration.
Nothing there. It subsumed me. Black hole in time and space.

And yet.

It seemed like what I was made for.

to be used.

most natural thing in the world.

#431473 - 04/16/13 10:24 PM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
nltsaved Offline

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 938
Loc: Kc,Mo
I truly believe that God is laying things on my heart that I believe he wants me to share . This post only strengthens my resolve . This is not a coincidence that this post is here in the time God is revealing things to me to share . When I have time I am going to put type it up so the world can see . It is going to be controversial God is Good Ask and you will receive I believe what he is laying on my heart is just for a time as this . For the last few weeks it is a recurring theme.and It is a message that God is pounding me with now and I have come to embrace it .

I wish i had the time to do it now but i have to go to work. These are questions that are not just coming from you here and now but lots of people in my life have been throwing these things around and it is not by accident that the messages and the studying and the books I have been listening to as of late are all pointing to these questions.

I will get back to this as soon as i can
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus

#431489 - 04/17/13 01:25 AM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
nltsaved Offline

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 938
Loc: Kc,Mo
This is not directed at anyone in Particular this is my own opinion
If you disagree thats cool. No one is forcing you to pick a side or to agree
Take it or leave it . This is my opinion me sharing what i believe was Revealed to me just wanted to share

Isaiah 55:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

To each person a measure of faith is given
I have a very high level of faith but at a great cost. It involves trusting God and it's more than just a cliché It is actually standing on the promises and believing and living them out.

I believe that if people would simply trust God and stop trying to go around God their lives would be more fulfilled.

Stop making excuses for God trying to reason within our limited capacity God is not like us his ways are not our ways his thoughts are far above our thoughts.

I found the glory of God the other day while eating a banana I started to realize that with every bite nutrients were being poured out into my body and that my body must have these nutrients to sustain itself along with every other thing that I eat and drink.

And God in his infinite wisdom has put before us fruits and vegetables and meats of all kinds to sustain us each one affecting our organs our chemistry Each one with a distinct purpose.

To be able to see God's infinite wisdom in a banana led me to further observations that God is indeed limitless that we shall find his glory through his creation.

People try to reason and justify and compromise things of God.
Take Joyce Meyer for instance she was sexually abused by her own father well into her teen years.

So many beg the question
if God is all loving how would he allow this to happen? Trying to reason trying to find some sort of justification for these acts.

And it is no big secret that
I have been sexually abused by two different males from the age of seven until 12 or 13 . Lived in over 26 different homes . i have been whooped with Extension cords and have witnessed my mother being beat numerous times by her many boyfriends through out her life and watching her choose men drugs and alcohol over her own children .

But as I have said and I have also heard Joyce Meyer say basically if this is what it took for me to have the relationship that I have with God I would not change a thing.

God Has allowed all of these situations and circumstances to mold me into the person that I am today only because I have allowed him access To my life and understand that when I became born-again that all of these weaknesses have ultimately become my strength.

And in the process he gets the glory. For under my own strength under my own rationalizing i did not have enough with in me to overcome these things .

And because I have allowed him access and not went against the current but with the current he has done many and mighty things in my life. He has used me to affect a great amount of people including my wife and the three kids she came into the marriage with. If I was not obedient their lives would be dramatically different.

God use me to be a part of one of the 200 men on the Oprah show that shed light on male sexual abuse.
For the Kansas City Star to interview me about male sexual abuse and for me to be examples to other men and women.
Under my own power and strength none of this would've been possible or for him to use me out at a prison to be able to teach the word of God to unsaved Prisoners some of which are child molesters. Only the hand of God could allow such power I know it has absolutely nothing to do with me or my own strength.

Instead of staying in self-pity wallowing where the enemy would have me to wallow and shame and guilt God has allowed me to see that I am a child of the most high God And that as long as I went against the current and try to make excuses and compromise and justification I could never ultimately get to where God would have me to go.

I am by no means saying I have arrived because clearly I am human I still have this fallen nature but I can tell you that my life is dramatically different because I trust God.

And I do not just use it as a cliché my life is dramatically different I have lived on both sides without God living in self-destructive behavior that he has delivered me from And I know I am one step away from being that old man and it takes the power of the living God to keep me.

Being addicted to pornography drugs alcohol only God has allowed me to be strong enough to lay them at the feet of Christ.

Some it took years to overcome some more instant deliverances but they have kept me humble they have been thorns in my flesh and instead of questioning God and going against the current i go with the flow with the current to live in his will.

I have allowed my weakness to become a strength and I know it is only because of God This is how I could speak about it with no pain with no shame because God is who he says he is and I truly believe this and if I am free and that there is no condemnation for those who love Christ And are called according to his good and perfect will then what do I have to worry about someone judging me?

Truth is I don't God is doing a wonderful work and my life he's allowed me to go and overcome so many things even the birth of my daughter born with down syndrome the recent death of my mother all of which take the strength and dependence upon God.

All of which knowing that god is the author of my faith and I will be conformed to the image of Christ by all means necessary this is the path he has chosen I embrace it.

This is the difference of someone who wants to go up against the current pumping their fist at God asking the questions why God why? It is okay to ask questions you will receive the answer.
But when the answer comes we do not like it because we try to reason and rationalize it instead of embracing it. This is the difference from staying where the enemy wants you to stay unusable

but if you embrace God's will no matter what it looks like and get off of your self-pity horse And allow God to work his good and perfect and righteous will in your life
ask yourself how can you go wrong?
Will it be hard yes but the rewords far outweigh the life that you currently live this life of compromise and justification and reasoning.

God is sovereign he is in control of everything people do not want to believe this harsh reality but I believe that if more people would embrace God instead of making excuses for God there would be more Joyce Meyers raised up.

I fully embrace what has happened to me and know that God is in control of everything and if I live out his will and his destiny for me nothing can come against me.

I have come to learn that in his good and perfect will that he truly does work out all things for the good of those who love him. If that means being molested and order to come into the knowledge of God and the obedience of God who am I mere man to question this?.

Is it because in my humanness it is not something that I would've done or allowed? Is it because in my own reasoning and thinking that there was a better way to bring about this knowledge?

I believe it has to do with this lone of thinking that hinders growth

God is going to do things in a way that will bring a bout the best possible result that will affect the greatest amount of people in the greatest way and if that means going through the things that I have gone through in order to reach a greater and a higher calling for gods glory then-So be it.

And much like Joyce Meyer she has embraced gods call No matter what it looks like no matter what she has to endure and knowing that god is going to conform us into the image of Christ by all means necessary

when we truly Are born again we must face these challenges issues and circumstances knowing that if God is for us who can be against us.

God has predestined those whom he chooses this mean some are not chosen this is a hard pill to swallow but if you have come into the knowledge of Christ it is not by accident

consider yourself blessed beyond measure to know such things. No and understand that if you recognize that you have sin in your life and that there is one pleading your case and that Christ died for your every sin this is truly something to be grasped .

Not everyone comes into the knowledge of Christ for those who endure to the end they will be saved what makes us think that we will not have to endure anything if we are in fact saved?

People do not want to face the fact that we will all not make it some are simply not going to make it there would be more Joyce Meyers in this world if they accepted God's will and plan for their life no matter what that looks like.

Consider this Joyce Meyer is living out the will of God preaching the word of God to millions

who are we to question God For the road that he chose for her to take in order to reach the status she has and she is bringing more glory to God when it is all said and done.

And this life is temporary we will be rewarded gods just and righteous punishment upon this earth is very plain to see but we try to make excuses for God.

As if he is like us

If a starving child dies is it really such a bad thing that they will not have to endure this life but be in heaven in glory?

In our humanness in our reasoning we try to justify compromise in figure these things out but God is who he says he is and there is a reason whether you like it or not for all things.

And no we do not get to know the reasons behind some of the things God wills in these situations and circumstances we must be still and know that he is God.

That's where the dilemma is people do not want to believe in this God but this is the God we serve he is infinite in his ways his righteousness is not of this world it is far greater than anything we could possibly imagine.

So many people draw the line right here well if this is the God you speak of that I want nothing to do with this God and God is perfectly fine with that he doesn't need our input on how to run this universe.

God wills it that all men be saved and he stands at the door knocking and if he chooses to reveal himself to you and you deny him
exalting yourself above the most high God having such pride as Lucifer God will allow for you to be prideful but know that there are consequences for such things.

And it boils down to Jesus greatest command love thy neighbor as yourself.

And there are things God intrust us with he has given us everything we need for there not to be starving children in this world. But because we do not live by this greatest command we have what we see today.

If the world would live by this principle and get away from all this doctrine in ritualistic stuff God's will would clearly and plainly be done.

The problem is people do not love themselves therefore they do not know how to love one another.

But when God reveals himself to people the love of Christ comes along with it the Holy Spirit is intelligent it leads and guides and directs

it is when we ignore and try to justify and compromise
This is when we get into trouble

bottom line we need to take God at his word we need to trust God and know that he is God. There are no butts

If you call yourself a Christian know that he is going to conform you no matter what that looks like you must be willing to travel the narrow road

Don't put God in a box there is not one big enough to contain His Glory

Edited by nltsaved (04/17/13 03:03 AM)
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus

#431494 - 04/17/13 02:12 AM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
Jacob S Offline

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 699
Loc: where the shadows lie

You completely missed what I was trying to say. If you want to know, I will attempt to explain it again. But I'm not going to bother if we are just going to be talking past each other. Either way, I would like you to clarify if the "you" in your post is me or an imaginary person. Because if it is me, you are assuming an awful lot of things you couldn't possibly know. And if its not, it confuses me why you posted it here. I really poured my heart out in my original post and was hoping for a good dialog.
Nothing there. It subsumed me. Black hole in time and space.

And yet.

It seemed like what I was made for.

to be used.

most natural thing in the world.

#431501 - 04/17/13 02:56 AM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
nltsaved Offline

Registered: 08/27/08
Posts: 938
Loc: Kc,Mo
This was not directed at you in particulair . This was something i have been dealing with and i thought i would share . I thought it went along with the questioning of God . Instead of this line of thinking all i was saying is to embrace Gods will for ones life no matter what this looks like . I was not pointing out anything in particulair just putting it out there . You can take it or leave it you csn take some and dismiss anything you like . I was not asduming anything you can take it all and throw it away . That is the thing man i judt shared my thoughts just as you have . I thought it was the right place to share . But as i have learned that everyone will not like what i have to say snd my intent is never to offend . People are fragile done are not . I thank you for sharing sorry if i
" missed the mark"

Edited by nltsaved (04/17/13 02:57 AM)

#431607 - 04/18/13 02:04 AM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
SamV Offline

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5972
Loc: Sunnny, South East USA
Hey Jacob,

I sense a sincere question here, "Both of these responses boil down to "trust God." But why? "

The simple answer is there is not a better way. When we breakdown into the simplest parts the Will of Jehovah God(may I use Jehovah?) we find a perfect spirit creature who carefully constructed a perfect spiritual world, then attempted to create a perfect physical one. The people He put in the beginning made a mistake, they did not "trust"(there it is again, rearing it's ugly head) Jehovah, but they relied on themselves. Jeremiah 10:23 tells us that "it does not belong to man who is walking to direct his step". We are broken, what comes from us is broken and we cannot find the relief we need, we will destroy ourselves unless HE intervenes.

What has God been doing since the mistake? He has been busy creating other avenues to answer the very important questions created from the traitorous actions in the beginning. He gave His Son to proclaim us "righteous", with righteousness we can approach Jehovah, we can ask for His holy spirit that will give us strength to endure hardships, we can ask for and know that we receive forgiveness. He has given us an instruction manual, the Bible, that reminds us that the effort to continue to do His Will will bring relief and comfort now(do unto others, return evil to no one) and rewards in the near future. It is a relief, but within ourselves for now, not a law for others. The free will thing, again for now, let's them make their own case for salvation or destruction.

Trust, the first thing a male survivor loses, the most wonderful thing when he finds it again in a group, or in an individual. Trusting God? That is too much. He is ALL POWERFUL, I am innocent and frail, why wasn't I saved? If the makes some inroads, there is much more.

Feel free to ask or comment, or just shake your head and wonder why I posted this here smile
MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

#431625 - 04/18/13 04:19 AM Re: Meditations on Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 [Re: Jacob S]
SoccerStar Offline

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 929
I myself always found the "Job Gambit" to contradict the ultimate story of the Bible. Mankind was expelled from Eden, and punished with having to toil for food, suffer in childbirth, and grow old and die, all for stealing the knowledge of Good and Evil. They couldn't be allowed to stay in Eden because then they might also eat from the Tree of Life and gain immortality to go along with their reason - which apparently the heavenly host believed would make humans equal to the highest of angels or perhaps even equal to God himself.

Well, if those punishment conditions are still in effect, we must have the ability to know Good and Evil.

So if you believe you see God enabling evil, why not say it? What's he going to do - make you grow old and die twice? You've got the moral reasoning ability and you're suffering terribly for having it and will continue to suffer terribly and, oh, hey, you also will DIE for having it. If that's not justification for being able to point the finger at evil when you actually do see it, then, really, what does anything in the Bible mean?
My story

"Don't think it hasn't been a little slice of Heaven just because it hasn't!" --Bugs Bunny

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