Newest Members
SuAn, Tranquil, smichael, bushydw, Teddyboy1969
13559 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
DBS (62), whendoIcry? (66)
Who's Online
5 registered (payne, UniversalBeing, lapchinj, 2 invisible), 66 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
13,559 Registered Members
75 Forums
70,519 Topics
492,493 Posts

Most users ever online: 418 @ 07/02/12 11:29 AM
Topic Options
#423662 - 01/30/13 04:08 AM If God exists . . . (some talk of CSA situations)
Jacob S Offline

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 691
Loc: where the shadows lie
(this started as a reply to a thread in another forum, I decided to move it here and start my own thread)

If God exists, then I am wrong and he loves me and I just don't understand.
If God doesn't exist, then I am right but it doesn't matter because everything is random.

If God is real and loving, he's smart enough and merciful enough to understand why I have a hard time believing in him.
If God is real and not loving, then I don't want anything to do with him.

But God being real but not loving seems unlikely. The world is too wonderful for a cruel creator to be behind it. But it seems too cruel for a loving creator to be behind it. As William Blake put it when speaking of the cruel violent Tiger: "Did He who made the lamb make thee?"

That's probably why Blake (and others) have so often thought about the idea that there is more than one God: one cruel and uncaring, the other loving but somewhat impotent. If that's the case, there is no way to know it.

I come from a Christian upbringing, so my thoughts do tend to flow from that tradition. And I do think there is something unique about Christianity, because it places such an emphasis on grace over karma (no disrespect to other religions intended). Christianity, if true, is about God coming to us rather than us working for God.

But does God come to us? If Christianity is true, then the act of eternal salvation is such a wonderful gift that we really have no right to demand anything else. A horrible life full of pain and torture and suffering is a blink of an eye compared to an eternity of Heaven. So God could give us no help at all on Earth and still be worthy of gratitude.

But is that the kind of being God is? Someone who is content to leave children to be r*ped in the PSU showers? Is Mike McQueary more responsive than the creator of the universe when it comes to actually helping children? I know we can argue about predestination and all of that, but there comes a point where actions speak louder than words. And the fact is that if God exists, he has witnessed and does nothing about preventing billions of s*xual assaults.

Why? There may be reasons. Many have been proposed, none seem satisfactory to me. But just because I don't know an answer doesn't mean there isn't one.

The way I see it, if God does exist, his choices and actions are completely unknowable. If God doesn't exist, then the universe is cold and hard and random but at least knowable. You can make predictions and plan your life around the natural universe, you can't make predictions about the supernatural. So even if God does exist, it doesn't make sense to pay a lot of attention to him. You do your thing, and he either will do his thing or he won't. The only wrench in that is what if that keeps me out of heaven? Well, I *want* God to be real. I *want* God to be loving. I *want* to believe that He died for my sins. I want to go to heaven. I long for those things. And I can't believe that a truly wise God would not understand why I am so confused. As the character of Thomas More says in "A Man for all Seasons":

"He will not refuse one who is so blithe to go to him."

If God exists, I have to believe he will be happy to see us and will understand our doubts. If he doesn't exist, that will itself be punishment enough.

Edited by Jacob S (01/30/13 04:08 AM)
I am a veteran of the soul wars.

#423743 - 01/30/13 06:26 PM Re: If God exists . . . (some talk of CSA situations) [Re: Jacob S]
SmartShadow Offline

Registered: 11/27/12
Posts: 447
Hay Jacob, Well said.

I think csa survivors and any victim for that matter struggle with this one. How can a loving God stand by and do nothing? And even more disturbing for me is the question of miracles. I believe God can and dose intervene in our life. So if he can, why didn't he? I think about the children today who are being abused.... I just can't handle the though of it and I feel to powerless to do anything about it. The best I have been able to do is give some money towards children most at risk. I hope and pray it makes a difrence for someone. Even if it does, I imagine these children will still have plenty of wrong done to them. I truly hate this part of creation gone wrong. The best I can conclude is there must be a deep spiritual law in place that keeps God from stoping it. CS Lewis in the book "The problem with pain" and also in his Narnia series, talkes of this concept. The idea is that in the fall of Creation, a set of spiritual laws were hijacked by sin. The ordinal laws are still in effect but are now also harnessed and used by sin as well. The law of sowing and reaping was ment originally as a good thing, but when harnese with evil bad expands. Free will was ment as an amazing gift to chose how to create life and experience it. But now with evil in the world "free will" can be used to bring great destruction and death. For God to stop evil he must stop the world.

For God so loves the world (us) he gave his one and only Son.

So Jesus then is the door. The way out.

The key to everything I think, is learning how to ask the right questions.

I remember a time when my prayers looked something like. Help me be able to see or believe. I think we some times have a spiritual muscel that tas been unused or tied up by the mind that we need to learn to use it, set it free. Takes time and effort to get it all working. I have a long way to go myself. But if you knock on the Door things will come to light.
Just because it's complicated doesn't mean we can't figure it out.

#426905 - 03/02/13 09:18 AM Re: If God exists . . . (some talk of CSA situations) [Re: Jacob S]
Jacob S Offline

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 691
Loc: where the shadows lie
I'm going to post this here rather than in a new thread because it represents a continued evolution of my thoughts/feelings along the same lines.

subject: losing my faith. Don't proceed if you don't want to read about that.


my healing isnt promised.
If i don't do what I need to do
go where I need to go
learn what I need to learn
I can't expect recovery.

There are people in my life
who don't deserve my trust
to keep giving it to them
is to deny myself my love

There is toxicity in some people
it is real
I am not to blame
I am not mean if I sense it
I am not insane

"Ever patient, ever kind"
words they say to waste my time.
"Wait on God" -- their constant con
To stop my life from moving on.

If you believe a ride is coming
You never learn to walk
If you think God will give you words,
you never learn to talk

If I stay in this hole,
There is no God who will find me
If I dig myself out,
can I put it behind me?

I don't know.

But waiting didn't give me strength
I never rose up on wings
And even Jesus was weary
From the pain that life brings

No more:
praying and getting no response
stomach turning wondering what is going on
why isn't he here?
And even if he does answer me ...
why me?
Why not the other kids who hurt?

No more:
hiding behind theological justifications
of how "free will" makes him impotent
how he loves us so much
he ignores us.

Its time to stop
being angry at God
Time to stop
being paralyzed by hope

I am all I have
and that may not be enough
But it at least forces me
to walk on my own two feet.

Edited by Jacob S (03/02/13 09:19 AM)
I am a veteran of the soul wars.

#426907 - 03/02/13 09:35 AM Re: If God exists . . . (some talk of CSA situations) [Re: Jacob S]
traveler Offline

Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 4255
Loc: resettling in NE Ohio
hey, Jacob,

good poem - well put.
glad you posted it.

there were periods in my past when i could have written it - except the "paralyzed by hope." for me, hope was the life-saver - just couldn't give it up.

guess i eventually reached a different conclusion.
anyway - just wanted to let you know - i get it.

How long, LORD, must I call for help, but you do not listen?
Or cry out to you, “Violence!” but you do not save?
Why do you make me look at injustice?
Why do you tolerate wrongdoing?...
Therefore the law is paralyzed, and justice never prevails....
Habakkuk 1:2-3

#428114 - 03/15/13 07:30 AM Re: If God exists . . . (some talk of CSA situations) [Re: Jacob S]
Jacob S Offline

Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 691
Loc: where the shadows lie
Jesus doesn't love me, dude
Jesus doesn't love me
I want to think he does
because otherwise, who will?

I don't want the world to be chaos
I don't want the night to have no end

But wishing doesn't make it so
And no matter how good it feels
to convince yourself of love
doesn't make it true.

Its kind of funny how you can not believe in God
but still be mad at him.
I am a veteran of the soul wars.

#429164 - 03/26/13 02:12 PM Re: If God exists . . . (some talk of CSA situations) [Re: Jacob S]
Country Offline

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 654
Loc: Alabama
Hey Jacob, I will drop a thought that helped me and hopefully will help you some. First let me say, the thoughts you have and express are all thoughts that us as survivors have or had at some point.

We must not equate family or parent love to Godly love. We look for our friends and family to make us fill fulfilled. The Lord is the only one that can give is this fulfillment. This is why most of our relationships fail. With friends or family. This is just my take anyway. Wishing you success and blessings brother. Take care
Ephesians 6:13

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.