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#413521 - 10/18/12 05:45 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
WriterKeith Offline

Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 980
I wish I could highlight and bold type this entire thread. It's a VERY important discussion with several points that have been made.

JustScott, your story is all too common out there, I'm afraid. When I last went into crisis, I phoned my health insurance and asked for male CSA-specific support groups. I got the runaround for a few months, and in the end, they referred me to a women's support group for rape victims. (Think it through) I was supposed to phone and ask the moderator to ask these women who had been raped if they would be willing to let a man join their group. (Again, think it through) The administrator even suggested I could help the women in their therapeutic exercises as they role-play in what they would like to say to their attackers. (Again, THINK it through, GEESH!)

I really do "get" that we are trailblazers, but for my own personal strength, it is a relief to hear a Tarzan step out of the bushes once in a while and YELL at the ignorance, lack of common sense, and sheer stupidity demonstrated by many in the field of treating male CSA and ASA issues.

#413523 - 10/18/12 05:59 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
cant_remember Offline

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 1070

It's just a fact of life that some in the female survivor community are full-on man-haters because of their CSA/ASA experiences.

Not particularly surprising and everyone deals with recovery in his or her own way, but when that blanket antagonism towards all men hits us in the face as male survivors, it's doubly triggering... because these women are supposed to be there to *HELP* us, not to assume we're rapists.

They are supposed to be the ones who understand, not the ones throwing around the nastiest stereotypes.

We are trailblazers, and we are doing this for those who come behind us so that they suffer just a little bit less than we did... or something.

I'll be just fine and dandy
Lord, it's like a hard candy Christmas
I'm barely getting through tomorrow
But I won't let sorrow get me way down.

#413538 - 10/18/12 08:06 PM . [Re: JustScott]
Life's A Dream Offline

Registered: 08/25/11
Posts: 886
Loc: Bouvet Island

Edited by Life's A Dream (01/13/13 02:32 AM)

#413608 - 10/19/12 03:52 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
dark empathy Offline

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2694
Loc: durham, north england
I agree with the guys here. A friend of mine with an intense knolidge of feminism actually says it is second wave feminism, or it's modern variety that is the problem, not feminism generally. feminism as gender equality was the original, it's not until recently it has changed.

What narks me however is the way that social sterriotypes about women are so open ended. A woman can stay home and have kids, that's fine because she's a woman, or can go out and get a job, that's fine because she's a woman and has the right to independence.

okay, however what would happen if a man stayed at home? my friend who worked as a teaching assistant and now has a daugher of his own said he was told never! to physically touch a female child, ---- a little difficult when a five year old girl developed a real liking for my friend and would throw herself at him at any opportunity, would that have been said if he was a woman?

women must be protected, ---- and yet "strong women" are to be applauded, while men are forced to be one way only. Women

Even in clothing, which gender gets the widest choice of what to wear?

And the way teenaged girls are encouraged to do whatever they want while teenaged boys are told "no! don't express your emotions and be one way" is really! irritating.

And all this isn't helped by people like my old ethics lecturer who in a so called introduction to s/xual ethics began with the words "It is a scientifically proven fact that %70 of men would rape a woman if they could"

Myself, while I absolutely am behind all efforts like scots, and would love to write on this personally in the future, I'm just scheptical of any sort of interlectual position changing by arguement and example.

I have studdied philosophy with a specialization in ethics for the last 10 years, indeed the thesis I've just spent the last five years writing is an entirely new deffinition of disability which does not (as is current status of the debate), blame everything on society. I wrote this (even while doing recovery), because it needed saying, however even though I genuinely think the principles I put forward would! be helpfull in formulating laws, ideas and social concepts about disability I doubt they will actually do so simply because of the way interlectual changes happen.

It's not, as hagel once said that one side proposes an arguement, another side proposes a counter arguement and you end up with some grand synthesis that takes into account best of both. Rather, one side will say black, the other white, then one side say blacker, the other whiter, and the debate pretty much continues. when people come to the debate anew, they choose a position not on which has the best arguements, but which position emotionally they like best (the reason all those victims of female sa espouse angry, man hating feminism).

Once someone has chosen a side, they then play the interlectual game, argue for that side, but won't really ever be convinced.

This was shown to me quite starkly at a seminar in our department. a lecturer from our department and the visiting speaker both got into a debate about the basic moral treatement of "beings" and what exactly should be done to respond morally to "beings"

Yet, neither of them had thought to talk to my guide dog on their way in, nor did on their way out.

This is why, though i don't regret writing my thesis, I'm quitting academia, sinse changes just aren't! fueled by individual arguements, but by a person's own emotional state.

this isn't to say that the views don't deserve to be out there. Of course, if nobody ever says something, it never gets said. however, myself I'm not entirely convinced that with the entrenched sexism against males in society, the arguements from angry feminists and the prevailing view that we'll see any sort of major change this generation just as Obi said.

of course, the more a contrasting view is out there, the more the evidence is known and the more the facts are plane to see the more likely it is that people will! be emotionally inclined to change their sterriotypical views, but sinse we are working on emotions and entrenched prejudices I'm not entirely convinced such change will come any time soon.

We might be trail blasers, but it will take a lot more cutting away the undergrowth and lighting fires before too many people are willing to follow us, plus some changes in those safe assumptions of everyone living behind us, ---- after all, it took over a century for feminism, first proposed in the early days of the french revolution to have any sort of affect, and even now there are still! bad things about the female sterriotype that decent minded feminists notice, ---- just look at gender specific adverts as an example.

Actually, despite all I've said, it does! make me think that perhaps in years to come I will! write about sa and my own experiences, sinse it seems all the more important such thoughts are out there given how much of a battle we're up against.

#413619 - 10/19/12 07:16 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
crazy gecko Offline

Registered: 10/04/12
Posts: 309
I am also a member on a parenting forum, and a while ago there was a discussion on sleep-overs, and I was informed that parents should be careful about letting their kid sleep over if the family is headed by a single dad, but if it was a single mom it's fine, because "females simply aren't predators." When I confronted the (female) poster about the inaccuracy of that statement, she conceded that yes, there may be isolated cases of SA by females, but compared to millions of little girls who are abuse by men every year, it is simply negligible.


Not only is it really offensive and sexist, I shudder to think how easily female predators can get access to children cause you know - they're female. smirk

Some people will wait until we've tarred the road before they'll be willing to follow...
I guess what I'm trying to say
Is whose life is it anyway because livin'
Living is the best revenge
You can play
-- Def Leppard

My Story, Part 2

My blog

#413620 - 10/19/12 08:32 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
newground Offline
Chat Moderator

Registered: 10/11/11
Posts: 1146
Loc: michigan
it is foolishness for sure and perhaps it is because their definition of abuse is skewed boys are naturally blah blah blah but as far as the numbers go just talk to the guys here. I for one would be glad to tell them the females abuse frequently.
Either I will find a way, or I will make one.
Philip Sidney

#413623 - 10/19/12 11:43 AM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: crazy gecko]
Still Offline

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 7011
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: crazy gecko
... because "females simply aren't predators." ...

Sorry, but haven't we seen ample evidence that the Normals are hopelessly and intentionally ignorant.

Some of you may knee-jerk-object to that, but look at the gravity of her statement. Look at the damage! Look at what someone is implying in that statement!!!

Dontcha think people ought to at least SEEK a clue before opening their keyboard yap?

#413625 - 10/19/12 12:10 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
SamV Offline

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5972
Loc: Sunnny, South East USA
Originally Posted By: JustScott
he was first forced to attend a group for men who abused women before he could attend one for sexual abuse victims. Despite the fact that he has never hurt anyone.
What would have happened if the men who abused women found out that our survivor was getting help because he was raped? The sheep had to meet with predators? Does this make sense? Would the well meaning men and women of this organization make their hurt children go through that!?!! Doubtful.

I wonder.., I remember when women began using camcorders to record issues they felt were bias and unfair. I wonder what would happen if survivors started flash recording responses to their genuine cry for help from Rape and Support groups that are obviously prejudice to females?


#413659 - 10/19/12 07:02 PM Re: They just don't freakin get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: JustScott]
dark empathy Offline

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2694
Loc: durham, north england
On the predator issue, i remember one really frightening experience I had when I was 16, only out of secondary school where all the abuse happened.

My parents used to foster kids. At one point one of them had a break up of her mariage, a complete falling out and lost all her money, and my mum in usual fashion decided to take her and her son in and look after them until they got on their feet, (a scheme that went badly wrong but that's another story).

I actually ended up looking after this kid a fair amount, while his mum was out finding a job, simply because I was the person with the games consoles he liked to play on as well as some of my old action figures, and despite the fact that I don't really get on with kids all that much I tried my best because I know this woman and her son were on really hard times, ---- indeed she was an abuse surviver herself.

One evening I remember her son was out as were my parents. I had just got back from school when she walks into my bedroom with her top half off and asks me first whether I think it looks nice, and second whether I'd zip up the back.

This scared the hell! out of me, far too close to my abuse as it was. she asked several times, but I simply said no and physically cowered in a corner, after which ppoint in a very exhasperated aire she left.

She was in her late 20's at the time and as I said I was 17.

I have no idea whether this was perfectly innocent, indeed later she actually appologized, or whether there was something dodgy going on.

However, what I find interesting is that it was perfectly okay for her to do this, wander around undressed with me in the house on my own, yet what would've happened if a half dressed twenty something year old man walked into a 17 year old school girl's bedroom? particularly one who had endured gang rape.

As I said, I still! do not know whether this was just me being hypersensative due to my genophobia, (which was not very well hidden back then), or whether there was something in her mind, 9she later proved to be a less than reliable person), however I think sinse I had! that sort of experience, even single mothers can't be said to be beyond suspicion.

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