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#352568 - 02/02/11 12:12 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: wayne9]
SamV Offline

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5971
Loc: Sunnny, South East USA
Undue empathy is a contradiction in terms.

Empathy is described as feeling another's pain in one's heart.
Without empathy, there is no humanity. Well, there maybe humanity, in fact there are several instances were history enlightens us as to "subjective justice" without empathy, and they are looked upon, by most, as horrific.

The abused is due immediate empathy. The abused needs services, a safe environment, time, compassion, and peers to work through the myriad of emotional, mental and physical issues compounded by abuse.

The abuser needs empathy as well as these services. Unless the intention is to destroy the life that has wronged, this person MUST have access to resources that encourage rehabilitation. Humans, all humans, need to be understood. Enabling an abuser is unacceptable. Permitting an abuser to continue abusing is unacceptable. Being lenient on an abuser is at the discretion of control. Allowing future abuse is unconscionable.

The difference in the services offered is a matter of timing. The abuser MUST face the consequences of their action. They must be investigated, arrested, processed, and have their day in court. They must be subject to objective justice. It is then that that human can get the help they need, the support and rehabilitation they justly deserve. No one should ever be left out.

"Objective justice" is the ability to process the crime, empathize for all parties, act accordingly to protect the victim(s), punish the wrong, and offer rehabilitation to the wrongdoer. How can a society expect a "common sense" without being willing to offer a common standard in every situation? If we as a society look to punish each other, then where do we draw the line at in the judicial process?

Objective justice, then, is balanced empathy, due to all humans.

As a survivor, I will be objective in my control and in my judgments, that with the judging that I pass on to others, I may pass when it may be my turn.


MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

#352642 - 02/02/11 10:04 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: wayne9]
Hailzes Offline

Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 27
Loc: 161
Yes I do say he's guilty. Your hypothetical 15 year old is old enough to have some comprehension of the harm he has experienced and the harm he is inflicting. I was 10 when my abuse started and I had some feeling then that it wasn't right; the vast majority of the survivor's stories here acknowledge a time where they became aware that what was happening wasn't right.
He doesn't need the complicated interpretation of the CSA effects that people here have achieved; doing what he's doing requires manipulation and privacy, both of which he's exercised successfully to go on to abuse another child.
I would say though that a child perp with a similar history deserves alot of help.
It's heartbreaking.
And to clarify, my initial post was an emotive response to a story where the perp was an adult. That makes things very different. Though maybe not for the victim.

#352643 - 02/02/11 10:15 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
Hailzes Offline

Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 27
Loc: 161
"undue empathy" isn't a contradiction.
Empathy is the ability to put one's feet in another's shoes. It's a by-product of our higher brain functions.
Without empathy I agree our society would be a pretty poor excuse for a civilisation.
Abusers do not exercise their empathic ability. In fact, they deliberately bypass it so as to justify their actions...minus the sociopaths out there; that's a different kettle of fish. But I understand what you're saying, the court system (and the rest of us) must do what these abusers can not, treat everyone to a standard we ourselves would like to be treated.
I clarify that my initial post wasn't in response to any court-like setting. It was a personal opinion. Obviously if I were a judge I'd have to be objective but I would feel the same.

#352648 - 02/02/11 10:49 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
wayne9 Offline

Registered: 05/15/08
Posts: 161
Loc: alabama
I understand your thoughts but also have to look at the one's like myself who never was treated badly. I thought what was happening during that part of my life was something special that only few boys got to experience. I don't think I would have thought it would have been bad to do the same. I know when I was around the age of 14-15 I had no clue of the awful effects and problems I would endure later in life. And I think its possible that some who did abuse as children to other children would never have done so had they knew what they really were doing. Also, and I know this will rub some the wrong way......I try not to judge everyone by what my personal thoughts are.....after all they are just my thoughts. Not everyone gonna see it the same way. Maybe others here should think that way!

#352781 - 02/04/11 03:21 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: wayne9]
sugarbaby Offline

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 382
If you are a victim of child abuse that is tragic and unforgivable and my heart pours for you, but if you then act out by going on to abuse another child, f**k you.


#353146 - 02/09/11 04:22 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: sugarbaby]
Shawushka Offline

Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 128
Loc: VA
Wow. I'm gobsmacked. As a matter of fact there's a large part of the OP I couldn't agree with less.
This kind of rigid mindset is exactly the reason why perpretators are ostracized instead of receiving help and therapy. This is the reason why potential perpetrators don't dare to seek therapy, this is why victims don't dare to tell their story.
We are humans and this dogma that one is always in control of one's deeds is total b.s. If we all were so much in control of ourselves and there would be no csa, there would be no murder, no drug users, etc. etc.

Being a victim I do understand your anger, but imho we shouldn't go down the road of retaliation.

#370537 - 09/20/11 12:27 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Shawushka]
Hailzes Offline

Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 27
Loc: 161
Where have I mentioned retaliation? Don't remember asking you to grab a pitch fork and form a mob.
I am zero tolerance on the excuse I was abused thus I abuse; I feel these perps more than any other would know how bloody evil what they're doing is.

You know what, I'll stop now because I know I'll just be trying to change your mind. Everyone's got their own opinion.

#370561 - 09/20/11 03:11 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
katie1205 Offline

Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 48
When Adam would play his cards on me, I would point out Oprah Winfrey was sexual abused by just about every male in her life until she went off to college and she has gone on to achieve greatness and help so many people.

I was not sexually abused by my family but every other way and landed in a foster home. I later was sexually abused by men because I have serious boundary issues. I have never abused anyone. Or played my cards and I have at least 4 aces.

I told Adam in the poker game of like he was playing a pair of twos. I had worked with hemophiliacs with AIDS from plasma who had full houses and never played them EVER unless blood came into a situation and they had to say something. There are a lot of "card players" in life and they annoy me. Seriously annoy me.

Two wrongs ever equals a right. I don't care what was done to you. It is no excuse to go on to do things to others.

#370815 - 09/23/11 12:32 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: katie1205]
zraver Offline

Registered: 09/23/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Conway, Arkansas
Guilt requires awareness, otherwise your punishing someone who doesn't even know there was a crime. As adults we are presumed to know the law and presumed to have control, but a kid isn't. I would try and save the 15 year old unless it was too late (via testing).

I know I don't have any anger towards the boys who did what they did to me. They didn't act with malice, they didn't mean to hurt me but they did. So I forgave them years ago and moved on. Only I just found out I never forgave myself.

How can some stuff last so long and be so fresh and yet I can't have that memory for good stuff.

#371007 - 09/25/11 09:29 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
whome Offline

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1739
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi Hailzes

I agree with a lot of what you say. Victims who become perpetrators, what can I say. The hatred I feel for them is immense, I cant even talk to their spouses. How could you even consider staying with a sicko like this. There is no justification.
There is someone whose husband molested, and I felt physically sick when I read this. They however redeemed themselves by tossing his sorry ass into the wilderness. (should have been an incinerator)

How can anyone, who has been through what we have, go on to inflict that on another innocent child. SICKO.

Could I become a killer, ...Possibly..If I meet one of these sickos.

Matrix Men South Africa
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