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#343397 - 10/28/10 02:06 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: wayne9]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 732
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: wayne9
I was raised in a Christian family. I have been taught all my life the gay lifestyle is sinful. I understand why this is taught. God created Adam…….he then created Eve that man would not be alone. He meant it to be this way. I understand that God did not intend for man to be with man or women to be with women. All this I know and understand………

It may be what you understand and believe, that doesn't make it either true or just. I do find it interesting considering the patriarchal nature of the society that the bible comes from and the consequently second class status of women that it is illustrated in this creation story. A traditional second class status that still persists in society *today* - women were created for men, their job is to help men, and do as men tell them.

What *I* know and understand is that women are equal to men, they have autonomy and can have a purpose for existence outside fulfilling the needs and desires of a man, and that stories encoding and requiring female subservience to men through their silence and obedience like those in the bible are outmoded and wrong.

If we can leave behind the now obviously unjust idea that women are second class and the property of men that was encoded in the bible, and move to this modern world where women are (ideally) treated as equals, why does anyone accept that anything else put forward by the bible is moral and cannot be challenged?

Now for what I don’t understand…..

Where do I stand as far as God is concerned? I know that I am more attracted to men than women. I know that if all things were the same as far as God and society was concerned that I would probably be in a same sex relationship. These things I KNOW about myself. Others do not! Is it because of the CSA that I experienced during my childhood years (8-12 years old). Is it because something didn’t form in my brain the same way it does in a normal boys mind. Which every the case, I know the outcome of it. I’ve known it for 30-40 years.

How it is that you feel those attractions is immaterial. Even the discussion of it implies that there are "innocent victims" who didn't choose to be gay, and "guilty victims" who therefore did choose to be gay. Splitting that hair is bargaining to evade responsibility for a invented "choice" that we don't even make.

I have asked God for help so many times but things remain the same. I sit in Church services and feel so much guilt for these thoughts and desires I have inside. The distress of knowing there are so many Christian friends sitting in the same service that have no idea about this part of my life and who would not understand seems to get worse as time goes on. Where do I get peace from all the turmoil inside……..

I think you already know some of your options. Change the minds and hearts of the people in the church you attend, change the church you attend, or change your beliefs. There are accepting churches out there, and there are ways to live a life with the divine but without religion.



Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

#343465 - 10/29/10 02:56 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
DougL Offline

Registered: 09/11/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Bradford, PA USA
I never started going to church until I was 35. I was molested at 12 by a friend, then raped by an older man when I was 17. After struggling for years I started going to church. I started mentoring the troubled youth in my community several years later. I then became a youth pastor, and now a pastor. I am now 49. I wouldn't give up on God now and I know He won't give up on me.

#343480 - 10/29/10 05:00 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: sono]
WalkingSouth Offline

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16270
Loc: Waldport, Oregon
Originally Posted By: sono
(non-religious straight guy)

This might be a good place for one of my favorite quotes:

"Religion is for those who are trying to avoid hell. Spirituality is for those of us who've already been there."

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy Shit! What a ride!'" ~Hunter S. Thompson

#343633 - 10/30/10 01:30 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
james 1959 Offline

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 287
Im nither straight, bi or gay in Gods eyes. Im me the way God made me and he loves me and he wants me to love him and love others and myself and i do.

Just love your self for who you are and thats all God wants from any body if others dnt like it thats their problem and not mine.

Love judges no one it accepts them for what they are through loving one another.

The greats Gift in this world is Love.


Edited by james 1959 (10/30/10 01:40 PM)
We are brothers on a journey,and companions on the road
We are here to help each other share the burden and the Load

#343809 - 11/01/10 06:24 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: james 1959]
james 1959 Offline

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 287

Edited by james 1959 (11/01/10 02:30 PM)
We are brothers on a journey,and companions on the road
We are here to help each other share the burden and the Load

#343951 - 11/02/10 06:39 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
Gamgee Offline

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Canada
I'm straight. I'm a Christian. I'm a Buddhist. Being a Buddhist has helped me be a better Christian. Jesus is New Testament. He never said anything except to tell us to be kind and loving and non-judgmental. If you follow the Old Testament then look at the people God chose to be our examples, people who were ready to kill their own children, slept with their own daughters, murderers, were drunks, idolaters,you name it. You are not those things. You want to love another human being. Too bad more people didn't live that way. The books of the Bible were written by human beings, fallible human beings. I don't belong to any religion, I try to do what Jesus or the Buddha or Martin Luther King Jr. or other people I admire would do. And if I think I need to do something for me that doesn't hurt anyone else or myself, I do it. If you believe God created you, who is there on this Earth who has the authority to tell you not to live the life he gave you? I believe that whatever God is he created us to love our neighbours AS ourselves, not better or worse. If you would be kind and accepting of others (even the self-righteous a++holes who judge you) you certainly deserve to accept and love yourself and whoever else will love you in return. AMEN>

#344160 - 11/05/10 02:32 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
DougL Offline

Registered: 09/11/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Bradford, PA USA
there is a really great site I have found that does a great job explaining about the Bible and homosexuality. It is the best article I have found so far.

No Hell For Gays

#344410 - 11/07/10 03:50 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: DougL]
mrd Offline

Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 28
My brother this is how God has enlightened me and everyone's enlightenment is different, I believe so that we can share different view points with one another. Which if received in openness can educate us all. Not to bash one another because our views differ. Only I have walked in my journey so only I can respond to it the way I do, as survivors I think we get that.
I don't know what makes a person gay, straight, or whatever. I do believe that everything that happens from insemination forms what we are because of what we do, and no matter what society labels us we are all humans. I haven't met one non sinning prefect person yet. I have had epiphanies so great I had the delusion I was perfect and could tell people whats right and wrong. I also have a word for that Tripping! To me God's word is the Truth, it is contained in the Bible. Humans seem to interpret it to make it fit how they want to live instead of living what it states. The Bible say homosexuality is a sin, it states sex with any woman (anyone) not your wife is sin too!!! REGARDLESS. It says not to judge, that's smart to me because we don't know why we do some of the things we do let alone anyone else. Being under mothered by an alcoholic I'll say this. My mother could have done anything to me, put her fingers in my rectum had oral sex with me and \or any number of other things. This could cause me to be anything gay, bi, straight, crazy... As a human I feel we are on a journey to peel off the corrupt layers thrust upon us all in this life. If we share and listen to one another with openness and compassion the process is better. I'll close with this, while I'd like to have a loving relationship with a woman at the moment I don't. I have been sharing my journey with many since the taping of the Oprah show. On Friday a woman I've known, her and her husband, for many years heard my disclosure and we talked about it and something in her life. It was one of the most heartfelt conversations I've ever had. While we will not be having sex or huggin and a kissin it was one of the most close involvements with a human. The conversation ended to soon with I love yous. I know if at anytime I needed to talk or a hug I can get either from either of them because of our openness to one another. I'm finding everyday what I want I don't need, but whatever I want I can have its up to me. I want to make sure I make wise choices that are not just good for me but others as well. Thanks to Jesus paying for my sins on that cross, he covers the things I don't get right in God's eyes. God judges the heart and he knows how my mind has been twisted because of life. He is allowing me to balance my heart and mind towards him day by day. My journey is propelled by faith in Jesus despite what other say its my walk and I'm trying to do the next good thing

peace and love my brother

Ignorance is the most dangerous element in human society.

#344443 - 11/08/10 01:22 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: mrd]
many_mees Offline

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 286
As far back as I can remember, I have always been attracted to boys when I was a boy and now men as a man. I searched for tons of years to reconcile my feelings and attractions to the Bible and the "Church" I belong to; all to no avail.

That is until I began searching the web and looking for the answer to this enigmatic problem. I'm attracted to men for whatever reason and I felt guilt about it because the Bible told me that homosexuality was a sin.

I eventually landed here at MS and discovered a world of men like myself honestly seeking to reconcile themselves over this very question. After awhole lot of reading from the posts and talking to other denominations within my faith, I came to the conclusion that I am Bi and that is how God made me "for his purposes".

By accepting that I am who and what I am, and by placing a label on it, I could finally settle it in my heart. I'm a Bisexual Male who loves men AND women and I could easily enjoy a relationship in either venue. So happens Im married to a wonderful, if naive woman who accepts me as I am.

With that, I began to explore the very question Tinman has posted. Can God love me for who I am? YES! He can and does.

So for now, the question is settled in my heart. God loves me and THAT is all that matters. I have accepted the free gift of salvation by His Son's blood on the cross and that is all that matters to God.

I like to leave you with a short phrase that has helped me hold to my faith in times when others choose to judge me.

"God looks at me through blood colored glasses, and all he sees is his creation in love with Him."

Tinman... I know you are searching for a difinitive answer and one may come and one may not. But until you have one, brother, allow God to love you as His creation. Not the creation of an unloving church.


#344456 - 11/08/10 08:33 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
john38 Offline

Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Pasadena CA
Hey Tinman,

First let me say thanks for your honesty and for asking for help/not going through your challenges and feelings alone--hooray for you!

Second, I'm not Christian--although there are many N.Test. principles I try to incorporate into my spiritual act of living. Being multiple, I draw from a number of different perspectives with regards to spirituality as well as many other aspects/values/belief systems in my life.

I guess what I wanted to share is a bit about the homosexual part, and a bit about my perspective on spiritual love.

Every study I have read about male to male sexual abuse indicates that the experience does not make us gay. To be sure, it often creates sexual confusion, but it doesn't turn us gay unless that was already our inclination. The fact that some survivors experienced physical pleasure during the act can come from many places: focusing on the physical sensations of arousal to avoid the emotional pain/shame/fear/etc. Also, the physical attention, especially with molesters as opposed to violent rapists, is often the only attention that some young victims receive. As a result, people can think the experience made them gay. I have a number of male survivor friends who were molested by men and who thought they might be gay, but who ultimately discovered that they were straight and are now in committed heterosexual relationships. Of course, you're the only one who can say what your orientation is, but at least from my point of view, as well as every piece of writing I've read about the issue, if you believe you're gay, you had that orientation prior to your abuse. In other words, it's who you are.

A funny thing about us sexual abuse survivors is that we can find many different justifications to avoid intimacy with other human beings at both emotional and physical levels. That violation and breaking of trust that we experienced during our abuse makes it difficult for us to be intimate with others. That emotional breaking of trust and faith that we experienced as the result of our abuse can be a real heavy and difficult set of emotional responses to hang out with and bring love to. As a result, many survivors create avoidance mechanisms to avoid the real pain. It may be, and only you can say if this is true, that your religious stance about intimate other involvement with another man is about avoiding all the terrible feelings that exist within you that relate to intimacy and love with another person. I don't know if it's true, but it might be something to be curious about. As a number of the other responders have said, there are many takes on Christianity that don't consider homosexuality a sin. It might be fruitful to consider where your current relationship to Christianity comes from and why you believe that there is only one way to be Christian: not to be actively gay.

The last thing I want to share is that many of my Christian friends believe that God doesn't make mistakes. From their perspective, if a person is gay, that's the way God made them, and so they should celebrate who they are as a gift. As for me, my Maker is simple. My Maker gives me two gifts. The first is love (unconditional support, compassion, acceptance and understanding are aspects of this love). Regardless of what I'm experiencing, my Maker provides me with this gift and if my Maker loves me, I can love me. The second gift my Maker provides is creativity (the ability to make, unmake, and choose). Thus, there is no fixed situation in my life. Every aspect of me is fluid and subject to change and growth. This is how God/Maker/Creator/Higher Power is for me. I sincerely hope that you are able to step into your God's complete and unconditional love for every aspect of your being. It's a beautiful place to be. It's not lonely, it's full of support, and there are many beautiful people in the world who exist in this sort of relationship with their God. You deserve to be loved for exactly who you are.

Thanks again for opening your heart and letting the pain out. It's wonderful whenever a survivor can stand in their truth and confusion with humility and humbleness like you are doing. By surrendering this heavy load you are doing exactly what you need to do to take care of yourself and let love in. I believe that you'll find happiness, an end to isolation, and what ever it is you need as a consequence.

With Lots of Agape & A Big Safe Hug,

Just for today I will treat myself with respect, compassion and acceptance.

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