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#204400 - 02/09/08 11:01 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Poet24 Offline

Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 36
Being abused by a man of the cloth is the ultimate betrayal, and perhaps most damaging because it damages your relationship with God considering the priest is a mediator between God and man, or at least is supposed to be.

It is not a matter of GOd allowing it to happen, he gave man free will, and that is something he does not hinder or intervene against, if he did we would be little more than pupets with God pulling the strings. I know it feels like you were betrayed by God and for the lonest time I, and I'm sure most of the men here, have felt abandoned by God at one point, even betrayed by Him, but I realized not too long ago, that to him, and to our human condition, free will is vital, and sacred. God didn't allow it, and he did not abandon anyone or betray anyone, he was right next to you, holding you close and crying just as much as you.

Faith and spirituality is personal and no one has the right to tell anyone else what they are when it comes to religion, that is something only you can discern and figure out. You don't have to condone the church in order to be religious.

You are a christian, you are loved by God, and He felt your every pain just as real as you. But don't be too tough on your wife, like I said, it is hard, if not impossible, for a non-survivor to really understand a survivor no matter how hard they may try. Just remain sure in your spirituality regardless of how strong it is, God apreciates every level, and loves everyone at every level.

Peace toyou all and God bless,

THe spirit is a fragile thing, easy to break, but not impossible to fix.

#204815 - 02/12/08 07:30 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: BJK]

The suffering down here will not compare to the reward in Heaven.

#206231 - 02/20/08 12:38 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: Anonymous]
VLinvictus Offline

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
A perverse person (OK, me) might say that the suffering down here argues in favor of the existence of God.

Life is complicated. Life is full of misery and sorrow, pain and shame and guilt, complex contradictions of emotions, a discordant symphony of feelings. The most simply biological functions -- things animals do without thinking -- are fraught with dilemmas. Should I eat this? Will this make me fat? But it tastes so good! Wow, he's sexy! I'd like to mate with him! But I'm stuck with the other one. I feel attracted, but then guilty and ashamed, etc.

Human life, human conscious, is hideously and unnecessarily complex. This complexity has no selective benefit. It merely allows us the creativity to do ever more unspeakable things to each other and to feel ever more bad about what happens to us.

If life, the universe, and everything really were the result of a cosmic accident, how is this possible? By what infinitely improbable permutations could inanimate atoms combine themselves into such a pattern to evolve brains that can create such miserable, messed up, pain-filled minds?

Life, in short, sucks (generally). Life is complicated. Life sucks because it's complicated and is complicated because it sucks. Such complexity necessitates an intelligent creator. A sadistic creator, but a creator nonetheless.

Call it the theory of "Malevolent Design." \:\)

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

#206247 - 02/20/08 02:33 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: VLinvictus]
WalkingSouth Offline

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16270
Loc: Waldport, Oregon
Originally Posted By: VLinvictus
It merely allows us the creativity to do ever more unspeakable things to each other and to feel ever more bad about what happens to us.

Oh God, I hope not! \:D

Seriously, you raise some very interesting arguments which I will not try to refute, but just say I find them fascinating to think about. Can't say I agree necessarily, but I guess that's not a requirement.

Thanks for sharing this perspective. It was enlightening.


"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy Shit! What a ride!'" ~Hunter S. Thompson

#210945 - 03/16/08 03:07 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
kiwi64 Offline

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 11
Loc: Georgia, USA
I still feel the pain of the actions, I don't agree that God will not interfer with free will. On the contrary, I believe that he does and that this is the reason why there are miracles in human nature.

By the same token, I am not sure what the purpose of the suffering that any of us have gone through is, but there are two miracles that I see. The first is that in various stages of our struggle, we have survived the attrocities that were brought upon us. The second is that we have found enough courage in ourselves to speak out and support one another through venues like MaleSurvivor.

In this day and age, manliness is still measured by how strong we are percieved, to "tough it out" is the norm, yet whatever our orientation is, our manliness has been questioned by society, in that male sexual abuse, particularly in the church is not really either understood or accepted. Through the two miracles that I spoke of, it seems that we are able to establish an identity that we can grow from, that we can get help from and ultimately triumph over those who used "free will" to harm us, but what a way to have to get there. Maybe this is the purpose god had for us, maybe everyone who contributes or even cares is being touched by gods will. Therefore I believe that to feel abandoned is ok, and that my pain and suffering was part of a bigger plan, in my case, some sort of sick plan, but a plan that can help others none the less.

In this case it seems that it is gods plan, rather than so called free will that those that are hurt are also chosen to survive and grow, if they want to.

This is just my thoughts on the matter, and through the responses to my original question I have seen a number of perspectives, so I thank you all.


Maybe we are here because we can give voice to the anonomus sufferers who feel that they must live in silence with thier own struggles and pain.

"the only limit to what can be achieved is our own imagination" Albert Eienstien

#301879 - 09/06/09 06:34 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
Charlie24 Offline

Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 562
I think this is a great topic and have wondered this myself.

It often seems more and more the world just gets fucked up.

What's with that shit man?

When I have had this discussion with others they say evil was created by humans that god damn apple.

I really would love a good solid answer to this question. Really wanna know the final answer to this question.

#301900 - 09/06/09 12:11 PM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kiwi64]
kerberosesti Offline

Registered: 09/05/09
Posts: 20
Loc: MN

The question of God and evil is the hardest we face. Much has been written.
My abuser also was a member of the cloth. I find a great quest to see how the church has been handling this. The answer is badly. It is not just God that has allowed evil, it's supposedly good people. And they lie about it. I can see how it leads people to look for spiritual meaning outside of a church setting.

Indeed this thread has generated much comment. It seems to cover most of the bases. However, all our perception of God comes from a culturally derived perspective. Somewhere I believe that there is a final answer but not one that I will know in my lifetime.
In the mean time my trust in God is that he will bring me to the final answer, not that he will make my life easy.

Which brings me to the other part of the original question. I have not read all the posts on this subject but did not see a repsonse to the question of how do we handle the pain.
I think all of us comming here get to the point where we hit the wall of pain where we feel we can't go on any more. I'm not a therapist so don't have technical answers. And given the situations, going to church is a source of pain for many and not a solution. Yet forms of meditation can be helpful. Coming to an understanding that we are all worthy persons takes a lot of process especially in a world that does not value all persons. And we keep coming back to the same question: If God loves me, why the fuck do i hurt so much.
I also think that making these posts and reading what others have said opens the door a crack.

Not everyone shares this thought and i can go with that as well, but I do expect to see y'all one day in the great banquet hall.


#302097 - 09/08/09 01:38 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: kerberosesti]
alan55 Offline

Registered: 08/19/09
Posts: 202
Loc: Seattle, WA
It's difficult to know the answer to this. Humans have wondered this since time immemorial. Coming from a biblical standpoint, I believe it began with the first rebellion against what the Creator had intended : a life with Him. Adam and Eve chose to listen to the serpent - notice however the "fruit" is not mentioned by name so we don't know what they ate (in my opinion it was a mango...they taste weird!)Then, since humans were not created to be robotic in their responses (hence the choice to believe or not - otherwise belief in a Higher Power or God is not volitional but forced and God does not force Himself on anyone). Since then, humans have had to deal with what others do or don't do. I have also wondered - since I truly do believe there is a God who loves me and has always loved me no matter what. There was a book written a while ago about the Holocaust. I had relatives from Austria (4 of them) caught up in all that storm. The book was called "Was God On Vacation?" I think most of us in here wonder the same thing. Do I blame God for what happened to me? No. Do I wonder where He was? Yes. This sorrow, this pain, this emotional hurt will one day be gone and,as Kerberos says, one day we will be beyond this and it won't hurt anymore.

#302146 - 09/08/09 03:49 PM . [Re: BJK]
bardo213 Offline

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 812

Edited by bardo213 (06/22/13 01:21 AM)

#302251 - 09/09/09 03:16 AM Re: How can there be a God [Re: bardo213]
stripthesoul Offline

Registered: 04/13/09
Posts: 10
This is something I'm really struggling with right now. I really want to believe in God, but why would he/she/it create a world with so much pain and suffering in it, seemingly for no real reason? I've read a lot of answers to this question, and talked to a lot of my religious friends about it, but none of the answers seem satisfactory.

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