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#281261 - 03/29/09 07:00 AM U.S. Economy
Charlie24 Offline

Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 562
Guys I'm gonna get way off topic from the Male Survivor site and I appreciate this forum for allowing me to say what I need say.

I'm frustrated and fed up with our current administration. I'm tired of corporate bailouts. Why can't we just let the companies fail.

A couple weeks back John Stossel & 20/20 did a great special on our economy. He talked about how the U.S. government should let this big bubble burst and not keep making it bigger.

I'm no economics major, I took an economics class 2 or 3 times and failed each and every time, quickly figured I didn't want to be a business major but I did learn something valuable and important. The economy goes through cycles, sometimes its up, sometimes it down. It needs to correct itself and attempting to correct it with huge sums of tax payer dollars doesn't help, it actually makes it worse.

I'd like to think I have some of the better qualities of both liberal and conservative. I believe in personal responsibility and fiscal responsibility. I don't believe in socialism and think that is where the U.S. is headed. It scares me that our debt is growing so fast. I don't believe in discrimination.

I'm just so fed up with everyday hearing about a new bailout. I wish they would let AIG FAIL, LET GM FAIL. I know this is kinda harsh and valuble jobs with people who are trying to work hard and raise families could be hurt so bad, but pumping money into something that is failing doesn't work. It just allows it to live on through life support for an extended period of time.

I want a President who wants to look out for the country.

I want a congress that really truly looks out for it's people.

I feel as though our current congress just wants to looks out for itself with their pensions and 6 figure salaries and health benefits that can't be scraped. Why can't Congress take a pay cut, that might show America they care.

It's frustrating to see a person who was elected based on his celebrity status in our country. I get tired of having our President feel like this is a game show and he need to go on Jay Leno and tv appearances.

Why does it feel like no one is listening to the people. The democratic control of congress is ruining our nation.

I get so fed up with it all I just want to tune it out, but what does that say or do for all the troops giving me all the freedoms I so often take for granted.

I'm proud to be an America where at least I know I'm free.

I just want this country to get back to its roots and foundations. I don't believe our founding fathers would be happy with the way and face our this great nation of ours and how it is today.

I thank you all for allowing me to vent.


#281274 - 03/29/09 02:39 PM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: Charlie24]
FormerTexan Offline

Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 12156
Loc: Denver, CO
"Why does it feel like no one is listening to the people."

Because they aren't, Charlie. The Congress is a brothel of folks who don't care about you and I. All they care about is what they can get out of the system before it crashes, and about serving their master, the Fed. My first proposal to restore the country to its roots would be to abolish the central bank. We do not need a private banking cartel stealing the labor of the people in interest payments. Our founding fathers would be horrified if they saw what has been allowed to happen to this nation.


Money talks, but all it tells me is goodbye.

If I could meet myself as a boy...

#281298 - 03/29/09 06:31 PM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: FormerTexan]
Trucker51 Offline

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Funny how the Republicans have such a short memory. Just 8 months ago it was their President who bailed-out AIG and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, then signed a $700 Billion bailout bill that averted a economic disaster that would have had worse consequence than the Great Depression did. Remember when the Clinton Administration had balanced the Federal budget and was running a surplus? And in just 8 years, during 3/4ths of which the Republicans enjoyed control of Congress too, the National Debt went from getting paid down to doubling from $5 Trillion to $10 Trillion. How much interest is there yearly on $10 Trillion?

If AIG fails, along with it fails the retirement funds of the majority of public education and State and local government too. So too does the State financial interests of New York and New Jersey, along with the city financial interests of NYC. And since AIG is one of the largest insurers of commercial and residential mortgages, as well as much of the credit-card business, the credit crisis would become much, much worse than it is now. AIG even insures a number of foreign interests too. If AIG failed, it would become virtually impossible to get financing for any large purchase and 30 million people would lose their retirement funds that they have been saving for their entire lives.

Why should we let Chrysler and GM fail??? Both of them had problems even before the credit crisis and the downturn in the economy drove away their customers. If they fail, so too do their suppliers, and both the machine tool business and the steelmaking business lose half of their business too. Already in the Great Lakes region Michigan has 15% unemployment in a State of 10 million people, Ohio has 10% unemployment in a State of 11 million people, and the greater Chicago area also has 10% unemployment in a metropolitan area of nearly 10 million people. Already it is virtually impossible to sell real estate in that area, and already there are huge vacancy rates in commercial and office real estate. Once you shut a "hot" steel mill down, it has to be rebuilt, it can't just be restarted. Would there be any consequence to our National Security if half of our steelmaking and 2/3rds of our heavy vehicle manufacturing capacity was shut down?

Two years ago one of the Detroit newspapers reported that for every 700 homes for sale in the Detroit area, that there was ONE qualified buyer that wanted to buy a house locally there. These days that figure is substantially worse. The Detroit area and the Phoenix area are comparable in population. Metro Detroit has an unemployment rate of 20% today, and Chicago & Cleveland are over 10%. If we close down both Chrysler and GM the ripple though the economy in the Great Lakes region alone would be catastrophic and would have huge national security implications too. In WWII we built thousands of ships out of steel and hundreds of thousands of armored vehicles. And your plan involves the shutdown of half of our steel and heavy vehicle manufacturing capacity. We would be a sitting duck without that capacity.

It seems like a lot of Republicans are upset that their effort to destroy the economy in America's manufacturing heartland has been thwarted by "socialists". How much is a house worth if you can't sell it and no bank is willing to lend on it??? The same goes for commercial, industrial, and office property too. Our form of capitalism is wholly dependent on continuing a growth rate that is unsustainable. Otherwise we will be forced to print-up huge volumes of money to pay the interest on our National Debt thereby devaluing our currency. Either way that we proceed, there will be some inflation (or devaluation of our currency). It seems that a lot of the Republicans think that we should let half of the nation fail in order to to save the other half, but the economic ripple from shutting-down AIG, GM, and Chrysler will cascade throughout the economy, and the loss of our heavy manufacturing capacity will pose substantial national security risk for us all. If we were attacked would you Republicans be able to continue buying from Mexico and Asia without the help of the people that you ruined in the Great Lakes and all of the retirees left destitute by your shortsighted policies?

Like it or not, we are in an economic calamity that is substantially the making of President Bush Jr and the Republican-controlled Congress of 2001-2007. A recent study ranked Bush Jr as the 4th worst President of all time, including the worst ever on both foreign policy and economics. And you Republicans want to continue his policies??? I think that maybe we should build a fence around the Republicans and see how long that they can make it without any substantial manufacturing capacity importing almost everything that they consume. Let them drink their own oil until it runs out. And then what? Don't come crying to us, after all you wanted it that way.


I want a President who wants to look out for the country.

I want a congress that really truly looks out for it's people.


I find it kind of odd that you Republicans think that Reagan, Bush Sr or Bush Jr were looking out for the interests of the entire country and all of its people. In 1982 under Reagan, the Detroit area had over 25% unemployment, and I lost everything I owned. I lost my business, my house, and my car, my credit was destroyed, and I got to watch as almost everyone that I had grown-up with was also ground into the mud by Republican "trickle-down" economics. In 1990 under Bush Sr, unemployment in Cleveland reached 20%, and I lost everything again, including the opportunity to finish college, where I was on the Dean's list with a 3.5 GPA. Between 2001 and last year, I had to watch as 80% of all of my customers in Michigan were slowly starved into bankruptcy, while LA and Phoenix enjoyed record growth. Water rights? We have plenty of water in the Great Lakes region. Why do Arizona and California think that they should be able to steal water from Mexico out of the Colorado River? I would be willing to bottle and sell Lake Michigan to you folks for $4/gallon!!!

I have a good friend in Michigan who just lost his house. He is 52 and has just lost everything that he owns for the third time in his life. He used to work on the assembly line at GM Truck & Coach. Now he delivers pizza in his own car, something that I did when I was 19. And he is lucky to have a job. I have another friend who has a degree in construction management there, who hasn't worked doing anything except mowing lawns in the last 3 years. He is married with 2 teenage children. His wife's employer was just bought-out and she has been told that her contract won't be renewed. They have 8 months to sell their house or find work that pays enough to afford the mortgage payment before her contract runs out. And half of the houses on their street are for sale. I have another friend who owns his own HVAC business there. Eight years ago he had a 20,000 square foot warehouse and 20 service trucks. In the last 4 years he has had to lay-off 2/3rds of his workforce. His business may not survive your Republican economics. And these stories of heartbreak involve only 3 of the 1500 kids in my high school.

I'll never be a Republican, and I'll fight you folks tooth and nail until the end of time or until you get to suffer through loosing everything that you own several times through partisan regional economics. I can't wait until LA and Phoenix have 25% unemployment, Dallas and Houston too. Just so you know what it tastes like. You want everyone that I grew-up with to twist in the wind so that you can continue to live well without fear???

Where are your morals??? I would much rather be socialist than regional politically-tied capitalist.

Go Democrats!!! Let the Republicans eat the sand that they walk on and drink their own oil!!!

After all, they don't need us, our factories, our economic problems, or our water either.


"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark

#281304 - 03/29/09 07:01 PM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: Trucker51]
ModTeam Offline

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 722
Loc: Everywhere

Lets' remember to keep this discussion amiable. Right now it seems to be drifting into the realm of name calling and attack. That's not what this site is about so let's not go there, eh? smile

Your MS moderators

WARNING: Private messages sent to this account are checked irregularly due to personnel and time constraints. Please send messages directly to a moderator by going to the main forum list, select the moderator's name (NOT ModTeam), and then click Send a Private Message in the Contact section. Alternatively, or if there is no named moderator, you may send a PM to any moderator.

#281308 - 03/29/09 07:23 PM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: ModTeam]
Sans Logos Offline

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5796
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
boy am i glad this subject has absolutely no appeal for me whatsover. i didn't get the sports gene nor the politic gene. somehow i feel i got off easy in that regard. oh well, wake me up just before the universe implodes. i wouldn't wanna miss that for anything. *shrug*


Ron Schulz, MSPC, NCC

#281389 - 03/30/09 12:16 PM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: Sans Logos]
Hauser Offline

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2963
Loc: United States
Charlie..........I SOO hear you!

My response? WE are to blame for this Charlie, we the American voters. We the people who vote according to 30-second commercials instead of reading books. We who depend on government school teachers to teach us about the nature of government, instead of thinking for ourselves and referring to NON-mainstream media for news and opinion. It's WE who vote for the SAME elected officials OVER and OVER again, despite their failures. It's WE the voters that totally ignored candidates that CLEARLY warned of this coming disaster, and yet we ignored them, because we didn't consider them "electable".

I could show you youtube clips of Ron Paul (R-TX) who was running for the Republican Nomination and REPEATEDLY brought up the fact that our consumer/debt-based economy was unsustainable and that we were literally standing on a financial precipice. The media and the spoon-fed public reaction? They poo-pood him, (just another "unelectable" nut. Just listen to this BRIEF synopis of who we could have voted for, but we chose to nominate a more "electable" candidate.

In short, what I'm saying is that I blame the American voters that vote for the "main-stream" and "electable" candidates, like Obama and Mccain, instead of voting for PRINCIPLE and based on their CONSCIENCE. The American voter votes as if voting is a fucking horse race, and that you have to be able to say "See? I voted for the winner!" It's really sad.

The fact is, the Democrats and the Republicans (with the notable exception of Ron Paul) are destroying the country. It's going to collapse. Just talk to any foreigners, they'll tell you because they're not barraged with our spoon-feeding media all day. Dismiss my opinion if you will, but history will prove the credibility of my stance in time.

TruckerMark, about your love of the Democratic Party.

So, what you're saying is that, if you lived in a country where the only 2 "electable" candidates were Stalin and Hitler, you would vote for Stalin (or Hitler) because he was the lesser of two evils? Aren't you still getting evil? I don't understand your logic. I grew up in the Great Lakes/Industrial region too Mark, but I don't let the economic downturns that happened to occur in a specific geographic area of our country at certain times taint my philosophic stance on who I want representing me in Congress or the Executive Branch.

The "educated" American voters voted for a Democrat, and this is what we get, bailouts, debt, continuing occupations and war and nation-building and debt, and entangling alliances and debt and central economic planning and debt,........sounds kind of familiar doesn't it?

#281395 - 03/30/09 01:40 PM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: Hauser]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus

Registered: 01/28/08
Posts: 2615
Loc: Central PA
I was pissed when the Replublicans bailed out those who didn't deserve it, and I'm pissed that the Democrats are doing the same.

Bascially I agree that they aren't listening and they don't really care. It'a more about their own wallets and gain than anything else.

Politics has two parts:
1: Poly, meaning many.
2: Ticks, Blood sucking parasites.

Nuff Said

#281567 - 03/31/09 02:45 AM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: JustScott]
WalkingSouth Offline

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16270
Loc: Waldport, Oregon
Originally Posted By: JustScott
Politics has two parts:
1: Poly, meaning many.
2: Ticks, Blood sucking parasites.

Nuff Said

Indeed laugh

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy Shit! What a ride!'" ~Hunter S. Thompson

#281610 - 03/31/09 11:44 AM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: FormerTexan]
mapleleafsn Offline

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Eastern Canada
A Canadian perspective/point of view on the current economic situation:

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Andy "All they care about is what they can get out of the system before it crashes, and about serving their master, the Fed." (sorry I don't know how to do the quote thingy)

In 1935 our parliment created the Bank of Canada to control the issuing and distribution of Canadian Currency. It work very well in helping Canada get through the depression of the 30's by allowing the Canadian politicians to borrow money "INTEREST FREE" to be paid back by the taxes collected. This allowed the creation of many jobs by building on infrastructure and subsequent spin-off employment and business.

This was fantastic for the Canadian future until 1974. From the time of forming the Bank of Canada until 1974 our national debt was konly 10 billion. (remember this was interest free). In comes pressure from the lobbiest for the big banks. They feel that the "Government should not be in the banking business" and the rules change overnight. Our Parliment now, instead of just sending a memo to the Bank of Canada that they want 'x'amount of dollars to stimulate the economy interest free, goes to one of the 4 big banks and borrows the money at whatever interest rate happens to be at the time. Our national debt explodes over the next 30 years to the point that our taxes that are collect won't even touch the interest owing. Today our banks are crying the blues because they are only reaping millions and millions in profits instead of billions while the average person struggles just to provide the basic necessities of life for the family.

As Andy stated earlier, it is the cartels of money lenders that have us by the sweat of our backs. The Democrats/Liberals or Republican/Progressive Conservative politicians are only puppets to the higher authority. Banks are the ones that are providing all the money to both parties so it doesn't really matter who gets in power. They will still hold and pull the strings.

There is a very good video available on youtube call The Money Masters that goes very deeply in to how they have been able to infiltrate the governments.

It was quoted by one of the Rothchilds "Give me control of the finacial system and I care not who makes the laws."

My 2cents worth (plus taxes and interest)


When the pain of remaining the same finally outweighs the pain of change---things will begin.... life is meant to be enjoyed not endured.

#281763 - 04/01/09 04:27 AM Re: U.S. Economy [Re: mapleleafsn]
ericc Offline

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 1986

Not sure what I know or believe (I'm not too politically inclined). But I know you like this guys, so here you go:


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