Newest Members
chairdesklamp, Bill Ohio USA, jez, Long Way Home, Bcbornleo
13595 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Brianna (32), Firewire (45), Floss1964 (54), gogo (47), Jake_t2398 (34)
Who's Online
10 registered (betrayed boy, chairdesklamp, Older1, BDD, Chris4TheMill, 2 invisible), 29 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
13,595 Registered Members
75 Forums
70,708 Topics
493,798 Posts

Most users ever online: 418 @ 07/02/12 11:29 AM
Topic Options
#280847 - 03/26/09 12:45 PM "Fixing" Homosexuality?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5781
Loc: Lyons, CO USA
Therapists still offering treatments for homosexuality despite lack of evidence
A significant minority of psychiatrists and therapists are still attempting to help lesbian, gay and bisexual clients become heterosexual despite lack of evidence that such treatment is beneficial or even safe, according to research funded by the Wellcome Trust.

The research, published today in the open access journal BMC Psychiatry, coincides with the launch of the website The website gathers together oral histories from lesbian, gay and bisexual people who have undergone treatment as well as from professionals who developed and conducted such treatments.

Researchers from UCL (University College London) and St George's, University of London, question over 1,400 mental health professionals on whether they would attempt to change a client's sexual orientation if requested. Although only one in twenty-five (4%) said that they would do so, one in six (17%) reported having assisted at least one client to reduce their gay or lesbian feelings, usually through therapy. Therapists were also asked in what year they had conducted such therapy and there was no sign of a decrease in recent times.

"There is very little evidence to show that attempting to treat a person's homosexual feelings is effective and in fact it can actually be harmful," says Professor Michael King from UCL. "So it is surprising that a significant minority of practitioners still offer this help to their clients."

Professor King and colleagues found that a number of reasons were given by the psychiatrists and therapists for offering assistance, ranging from the counsellor's own moral and religious views about homosexuality through to a desire to help patients who were stressed by discrimination. There was also a degree of ignorance about the lack of evidence surrounding such the efficacy of such therapies – in particular, that no randomised control trials have ever been conducted that show that the therapies are effective.

Comments from the counsellors who offered assistance included:

"Where someone had a strong faith, then working to help the person accept their feelings but manage them appropriately may be the best approach if [the] person felt they would lose God and therefore their life was not worth living."

"The individuals I have worked with have all been very unhappy about their sexuality and wish they were heterosexual. This has been because of responses from friends, family and the local community – which outside London is still very homophobic."

"Children and young adults are more likely to be confused about their sexuality and to jump to conclusions (correct or otherwise) if unable to talk through their concerns."

"Although homosexual feelings are usual in people, their physical expression, and being a person's only way of having sexual relations is problematic. The physical act for male homosexuals is physically damaging and is the main reason in this country for AIDS/HIV. It is also perverse."

Professor King believes that it is important to raise awareness amongst both therapists and the wider public about homosexuality and its so-called treatments.

"The best approach is to help people adjust to their situation, to value them as people and show them that there is nothing whatever pathological about their sexual orientation," he says. "Both mental health practitioners and society at large must help them to confront prejudice in themselves and in others."

The researchers have launched a new website,, which aims to help raise awareness and collect oral histories from both mental health practitioners and the people they have treated.

Commenting on the research, Derek Munn, Director of Public Affairs at the gay and lesbian equality organisation Stonewall, says: "So-called gay cure therapies are wholly discredited. The conclusions of this research are a welcome reminder that what lesbian and gay people need is equal treatment by society, not misguided treatment by a minority of health professionals."


Blissfully retired after 35 years treating sexual abuse

#280865 - 03/26/09 03:08 PM Re: "Fixing" Homosexuality? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
nathan555 Offline

Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
I have to disagree.
I guess it depends on the definition of "homosexuality"

I denounce psychologists who condemn me because some bastard
violated me in my childhood

What right does the pro gay hetrophobic lobby have to condemn me to an orientation I did not chose
was not for years aware of what the influence was

Sure - if some tried to force, coherce homosexuals into being hetro such a violation of will is doomed to failure

I have come to terms that csa
set up UNWANTED UNINVITED same sex attraction

I REFUSE to be condemned to a patter inflicted upon me in a dark room by a totally evil bastard perp.

I renounce biast research which REFUSES to take into account matters such as

moral choice
that God created me to fulfill my manhood

I am sick of the pressure to be "gay" = a victim of shit

secular psychology is so intellectualy bias
I have studied it at university
it is based on experiaments and observations of WHAT IS

in the faculties I studied in I was not permitted to study

I am not anti gay - see my posts

I am not in denial - see my posts

the other issue is no one defines homosexual

How many times did gays who infiltrated phone councelling services suggest I look at porn
or suggest places to go for sexual encounters?

To admit to ssa is one thing

to be condemned to acting out sexually is another


#280966 - 03/27/09 03:00 AM Re: "Fixing" Homosexuality? [Re: nathan555]
myboyhoodfears Offline

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457

and here is a differnt opinion for the sake of balence:

homosexuality can be artifically induced in animals...this is an irrefutable fact, and its also a fact that many animals who are artfically induced into homosexual behavior can revert to hetersexual behavior by countering the artifical influences that caused them to engage in homosexual behavior to begin with,....that people think that its imposible that homosexuality can be artifiacially induced in humans is an outright denial of these facts....

by denying reparative theropy to people whose sexual orientation could quite posibly be the result of artifical inlfuences is harmfull to them and a slap in the face of the many men here on this site who deal with SSA's because of CSA or other environmental causes....there is no emperical evedance that proves anyone is born gay...or that sexual orientation is fixed at birth...and cannot change...because the success rate of reparative theropy is low is insufficiant evedance to prove that it should not be attempted if one feels justfied in seeking help...the low sucess rate of reparative theropy only proves that certain reparative theropy methodologies might be seriously flawed,...but wanting to change an unhealthy sexuality that was inflicted on you is not an unhealthy endevor,...though it maybe an uphill battle, this is not unexpected...its an uphill battle to quit smoking or get off heroine after all...and no one saying these people shouldnt attempt to seek treatment for thier behavior or that they should just accept being addicted to heroine or cigaretts are they?...

the peddlers of an "anything goes" sexual utopien world, the pornoraphers, psychologists, and reaserchers like kinsey and Rind and numerous others are the pushers of a drug that has distroyed the lives of millions, and continues to confuse and demoralize countless more,...they are doing no one any favors...they deny the obvious fact that when ones sexual psychological development is inconsistant with ones sexual physiology there is something wrong...instaed they insist there is nothing wrong with you...

what will we say when they remove pedophilia off the DSM, and i assure you this will happen soon enough....they only need to use the same criteria that they used to remove homosexuality off the list..." homosexuality was considered a problem only when it was dissatisfying to the person. When the condition was compatible ("ego-syntonic")--and the person was comfortable with his homosexual thoughts, feelings and behavior--homosexuality was not considered pathological." replace word "homosexuality" with "pedophilia" in the above statements and we have a serious problem on our hands...they are well on their way to trying to prove with poorly done studies and analysis that child adult sexual contact does no harm to children...the idea they are pushing is that the only real harm is bacuase of social nonaccpetance of homosexuality,...and there is nothing inherently harmful or wrongful with a grown adult having sex with children,...(ironically they single out boys as having no ill effects from having sex with adults over girls) if society saw nothing wrong with the behavior then it would be perfectly fine...what does that say about this site? and what does that say about the many people here including my self that know the truth....are we liars...or delusional?..

is it merely coincidental the most ancient Greek men engaged in this behavior in a social environment that accepted pedophilia and homosexuality? were they all "born that way"? is it coincedence that the boys in that society grew up and continued the behavior?...isnt that just an example of the cycle of abuse on massive scale? they were exposed and "learned" the behavior and an ignorant society accpeted it and so they continuned to do it....the lines are already blurred and there is nothing to stop this very situation from happening again...there only need be a change in public perceptions of the behavior (redefining it is a its intergenerationl sex and not child molestation) long do you think it will take? lets calculate...the DSM was first modified to affirm homosexuality in 1973...its now 2009 only 36 years later and gay marriage is legal in many contries and well on its way to becoming legal in the states and we are watching gay cable 2012 the next incarnation of the DSM (DSM V) will be released

there are already in many contries a move to abolish age of consent laws or lower them to levels that fall well within the acceptable range of most pedophiles preferences...though largely unsuccessful today becuase of US insistance to keep these laws...many contries fail to enforce them...child protection laws and AOC laws hang percariously by the tiniest thread of public non-accpetance and we only need to flintch once before it all comes crashing down...and who will end up with the most damage? kids.

phillip tromovitch coauthor of Rind et al 1998 states: "Like masturbation and homosexuality, pedophilia (informally: erotic attractionto prepubescent people) appears to have entered the DSM as a ‘‘mental disorder’’ without any scientific or rational basis, perhaps because, like masturbation and homosexuality, pedophilia does not usually lead to procreation. Indeed, even today, there appears to be no rational scientific basis for the inclusion of pedophilia as a defined mental disorder"

Moser and Kleinplatz add, psychiatry has no baseline, theoretical model of what, in fact, constitutes normal and healthy sexuality to which it could compare people whose sexual interests draw them to children or sadism/masochism.

Moser--along with several other prominent mental-health experts--argued in favor of de-pathologizing pedophilia. Some of the commentators writing in that issue (Archives of Sexual Behavior), said that there is little or no proof that sex with adults is harmful to minors. Another mental-health expert argued that society should not discriminate against adults who are attracted to children--noting that many beloved authors and public figures throughout history have been high-functioning individuals who could actually be classified as pedophiles.

"Any sexual interest," Moser concluded in his Archives commentary, "can be healthy and life-enhancing." (does that include rape or self mutilation etc...?)

"People with "sexually unusual" interests, Moser and Kleinplatz note, may in fact be quite happy and well-adjusted. But the APA's labeling of their conditions as "pathological" fuels social discrimination against them, Moser and Kleinplatz warn, which can lead to distress and discrimination that is psychologically damaging.

Furthermore, they say, since the A.P.A. has no concept of what "healthy sexuality" or even a "healthy personality" actually entails, then how can psychiatry presume to define "unhealthy" sexuality? And since many people engaging in these unusual behaviors are not "distressed" or "disabled" by their interests, how can the A.P.A. justify continuing to pathologize them?"

(but there is a standard for normal healthy sexual behavior...just because many people cannot or refuse to accept it doent mean it does not exist and is not valid.)

"pro-gay researchers fear any inquiry into psychological causes would amount to a concession of pathology; after all, there has been no similar investigation of the causes of heterosexuality (Stein and Cohen, 1986). They have encouraged only the search for a genetic or endocrine basis for homosexuality, in the belief that such a discovery would once and for all resolve the issue of homosexuality's normality."

"We too consider it possible that there could be some predisposing genetic factors; but in this regard we see a parallel with alcoholism. Although there is now greater recognition of some biological predisposition to alcoholism, we continue to acknowledge it as problematic, we continue to treat it, and we still find the most successful treatments to be psychological, social and spiritual supportive therapy."

"Beyond political pressures, there were two other reasons why the psychiatric profession removed homosexuality from its diagnostic manual.

The first reason is that psychiatry hoped to eliminate social discrimination by removing the stigma of "sick" attributed to homosexual people (Bayer, 1981; Barnhouse, 1977). Most psychotherapists are personally committed to removing emotional distress and diminishing the destructive effects of socially-imposed guilt. There was a leap of assumption that continued diagnosis of homosexuality would perpetuate society's prejudice and the homosexual person's social suffering.

The second reason is that the psychological profession has failed to identify, with certainty, the psychodynamic causes of homosexuality, and consequently to devise a consistently successful treatment for it. Historically, the cure rate in the treatment of homosexuality has been modest. In those few studies that do claim success, the percentage of clients converted to heterosexuality runs from 15-30%, and there is question whether the "cure" was maintained on long-term follow up. Such results have culminated in an acceptance of the condition."

"Failure by the psychiatric profession to recognize homosexuality as an unwanted condition for some, serves to discourage members of the mental health profession from offering treatment. Most harmfully, the client himself is disheartened, since the very profession to which he turns for help tells him that it is not a problem and he must accept it.

It is extremely demoralizing for a client to persist in attempting to overcome homosexuality when the psychological profession--which would administer treatment--insists he does not have a problem."

"Today, influenced by the popular assumption that homosexuality is in no way amenable to change, psychotherapists proceed to bring about "cure" by encouraging the client to accept his homosexuality. The most effective treatment is considered to be desensitization to feelings of guilt. This is done not because therapists necessarily advocate the gay lifestyle, but because they see no successful treatment.

Renowned behavioral psychologist Joseph Wolpe was faced with a Catholic client who felt guilty about his homosexuality. Wolpe had to decide which behavior to extinguish--the homosexuality or the religious guilt. Rather than the homosexuality, he chose to extinguish the guilt. This case is an example of the power of the therapist and a decision made all too often by the psychological profession. (Two interesting notes on this case: First, Wolpe said he made his decision based upon a belief that homosexuality was biologically determined. Second, the client later discovered heterosexual attraction on his own and was married, and Wolpe determined him to be cured of homosexuality.)"

"Yet while there are no shortcuts to personal growth, how long it takes to reach a goal is not as important as the choice of direction. A sense of progress toward a committed value is what is most important. The non-gay homosexual is on the road to unifying his sexuality with his masculine identity. When he can look back over the past months and see a realization of some of the goals he has committed to, he gains hope.

To some, this approach may sound reactionary and anti-gay, anti-sexual, anti-freedom. Rather, for those men who seek an alternative to the gay lifestyle, this is progressive treatment. Indeed, many men have found these ideas to reflect a truth they sense within themselves. This approach acknowledges the value of gender difference, the worth of family and traditional social values, and the importance of the prevention of gender confusion in children."

Post Nubilia Pheobus

#281000 - 03/27/09 12:44 PM Re: "Fixing" Homosexuality? [Re: myboyhoodfears]
nathan555 Offline

Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
I was thinking
most people who have fillings done by dentists have to have them re-filed some years later.

so using the psychologists arguement filling teeth is futile

Immagine if only 4% of dentists were wiling to do fillings?


I looked at the UK site

a link to you tube
I noted it cites cases where parents "took" their gay son to
"be cured"

1) Parents "taking" adult sons to anything is doomed to failure

cohersion is not going to work

2) It is intellectual dishones to use forced theropy
to refuse voluntary recovery

When I as a victim of csa my an older male

acknowledge unwanted same sex attractions set up during abuse

and I want to set up hetro patterns

and I WANT to have my sexuality restored

then when we find the steps to recovery

I will determine it will work

there may be set backs

but it will work becaue:

it's MY choice

I want restoration

I have identified the problem and MY goal


Edited by nathan555 (03/27/09 01:36 PM)
Edit Reason: update

#281021 - 03/27/09 02:46 PM Re: "Fixing" Homosexuality? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Sans Logos Offline

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5796
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
mod hat off.....

it appears as if people are reading that ken singer had something to do with manufacturing this article, which is not the case.

also, the focus here is on recovery as it is unique for each individual. it is my understanding that male survivor is not in the business of practicing reparative therapy for people with homosexual orientation. as such, i personally interpret ken's post as pointing to some of the more current research findings in the field of sexual pathology. no statement is being made to discourage those who desire to address the deeper issues of their own sexual orientation from doing so.

it is also my understanding that as far as male survivor's position is concerned that, as stated in the guidelines, indeed there is room for healthy discussion of dissenting viewpoints in the open forum. but for those in search of a definitive argument one way or another, for or against, it might be a more efficient use of time and energy to find a forum outside the male survivor community where such positions are supported.


Ron Schulz, MSPC, NCC

#281030 - 03/27/09 03:49 PM Re: "Fixing" Homosexuality? [Re: Sans Logos]
myboyhoodfears Offline

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
i personally interpret ken's post as pointing to some of the more current research findings in the field of sexual pathology. no statement is being made to discourage those who desire to address the deeper issues of their own sexual orientation from doing so.

i dont interpet it that way at all....i see it as one sided and dliberatly so....not that i have anything against ken hes a great guy no doubt....but an unbiased veiw point would have presented both sides....i fail to see anywhere in kens post that takes a objective look at the other side.

There is very little evidence to show that attempting to treat a person's homosexual feelings is effective and in fact it can actually be harmful," or..."The best approach is to help people adjust to their situation, to value them as people and show them that there is nothing whatever pathological about their sexual orientation"

if you dont see these statements and the entire gist of his post as a delibeate attempt to "dicourage poeple from addressing the deeper issues of their sexual orientation"...then clearly you are not reading what im reading.

Edited by myboyhoodfears (03/27/09 04:21 PM)
Post Nubilia Pheobus

#281034 - 03/27/09 04:48 PM Re: "Fixing" Homosexuality? [Re: myboyhoodfears]
Sans Logos Offline

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5796
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
q.e.d dan

male survivor is not in the market for disputing people's personal perspectives on the matter.

in fact its professional support staff are members of the apa [american psychological assosication] and therefore base their statements about such things in terms of the research and findings of this organization.

The Council of Representatives of the American Psychological Association (APA) has passed a resolution affirming four basic principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation, so-called conversion or reparative therapies.

These principles are:

* Homosexuality is not a mental disorder and the APA opposes all portrayals of lesbian, gay and bisexual people as mentally ill and in need of treatment due to their sexual orientation;

* Psychologists do not knowingly participate in or condone discriminatory practices with lesbian, gay and bisexual clients;

* Psychologists respect the rights of individuals, including lesbian, gay and bisexual clients to privacy, confidentiality, self-determination and autonomy;

* Psychologists obtain appropriate informed consent to therapy in their work with lesbian, gay and bisexual clients.

The resolution further states that the APA "urges all mental health professionals to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that has long been associated with homosexual orientation."

so it makes perfect sense, being that ken is a representative of both the apa and the male survivor organization that he would post a thread attempting to reduce the stigma and increase affirmation for users of this webform struggling unnecessarily with the topic.

there seems to be an assumption that anything posted here is an automatic topic for debate. i see the post in question as clarifying and informative, most likely because i value the perspective of the apa regarding its position on this topic. those who cannot accept this are free to go elsewhere to find the healing resources that resonate with their particular wants.

for those who chose to remain here, i reiterate, there is a forum here called the open forum created specifically for reasonable 'axe grinding'.

The forum is for the discussion of any issues that may be triggering to others. It also is a place where frank discussion and pointed remarks reflecting disagreements with others would be allowed. We will move to this forum discussions from other forums which, in our opinion, might be triggering or that discuss issues described within the guidelines


Ron Schulz, MSPC, NCC

#281039 - 03/27/09 05:21 PM Re: "Fixing" Homosexuality? [Re: Sans Logos]
myboyhoodfears Offline

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
so thats it?...just accept the status quo or get lost?....ok there ya have it...nice work.

Edited by myboyhoodfears (03/27/09 05:28 PM)
Post Nubilia Pheobus

#281052 - 03/27/09 06:43 PM Re: "Fixing" Homosexuality? [Re: myboyhoodfears]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus

Registered: 01/28/08
Posts: 2615
Loc: Central PA
post removed by moderator team

Edited by ModTeam (03/28/09 04:34 AM)
Edit Reason: use of inappropriate sexually suggestive language


Moderator:  Chase Eric, ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.