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#266308 - 12/10/08 12:46 PM labels
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5796
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
someone in another thread speaking about 'homosexuals' stated:
Quote:
I am not one though.


not 'a' homosexual? the way i see it, homosexuality is a characteristic, and does not define a persons essential being. this type of thinking encourages self-labeling and promotes division within the individual. it also regenerates the social thought idiom that being 'a' something separates the thing from being part of the whole fabric.

black, white, gay, straight .... etc.

i am not 'an' anything. i am simply being being being. my beingness has characteristics which are interpreted and translated into thought labels according to the perspective of the beholder. they are then assigned value in a person's mind according to how that principle supports their personal belief system.

the division is yours. i am not separate.

thought constructs of the mind when shared by consensus of the majority have a nasty way of creating delineations that suppress the freedoms of those targeted by such labeling.

please notice your labels. please don't fence 'me' in. i, for one, would appreciate that very much. wink <-----sarah palin wink

ron

_________________________
Ron Schulz, MSPC, NCC


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#266313 - 12/10/08 01:33 PM Re: labels [Re: Sans Logos]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I agree with this. Society would have anyone believe that any level of homosexual desire means you are a homosexual which means you are gay which means you must live a gay lifestyle, and it confuses the hell out of so many people, like myself

I acknowledge a level of homosexuality within me, but i reject the 'gay' or 'homosexual' label because they do not fit with how i see myself. I've had numerous people tell me that i'm in denial, or should be living a gay life, but who are other people to tell you how to feel or how to live?



Edited by nonchalant (12/10/08 01:36 PM)

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#266333 - 12/10/08 04:38 PM Re: labels [Re: nonchalant]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: nonchalant
I agree with this. Society would have anyone believe that any level of homosexual desire means you are a homosexual which means you are gay which means you must live a gay lifestyle, and it confuses the hell out of so many people........

......... i reject the 'gay' or 'homosexual' label because they do not fit with how i see myself.


I have found that personally identifying as Queer to be most confusing to people and you know what? Fuck'em. When they ask if I'm Gay, I always say no, simply because I'm not.

When asked the difference between Queer and Gay, I don't answer. By what right do people, who are not intimates of mine, question me about my sexual practices. What's next people? Am I soon to be expected to reveal my bank balance as well? To the general public? As a matter of course?

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#266367 - 12/10/08 08:42 PM Re: labels [Re: Sans Logos]
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Ron,

I am a lot of things, one of which is gay. My husband and I are just two normal looking guys. Neither of us know what this 'gay lifestyle' thing is. We work around the house; we pay taxes; we are just ordinary people. But because of one aspect of our existence we are denied rights, vilified by religious groups and looked down upon by a lot of people.

Sexual orientation is just one aspect of who we are and it's nobody else's business but ours. I don't understand why so many people are so interested in what goes on in other peoples lives.

Take good care of yourself,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#266374 - 12/10/08 09:37 PM Re: labels [Re: Stephen_5]
duncanUK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 632
I hate the way people apply labels do define who they are, be it black, white, gay , straight etc... I have sent emails to various religious groups to explain themselves when they go around "preaching" hatred to our fellow human beings.

I have not had a reply. In my books, if there is a god; then god would love us all. God is not tied to the human concept of life. I bet god would also be upset that the word has been corrupted and used as a weapon.

Duncan

_________________________
you dont see me. i am not really here. Its my fault.. all of it. I am to blame and no one else.

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#266660 - 12/12/08 05:13 AM Re: labels [Re: duncanUK]
Logan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 1368
Loc: NY
as some one who identifies themselves as being more statight than gay at this point (Bi), Amen, brother!!!

_________________________
"Terrible thing to live in Fear"-Shawshank Redemption
WOR Alumnus Hope Springs 2009
"Quite a thing to live in fear, this is what is means to be a slave"
-Blade Runner

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#268055 - 12/20/08 01:03 PM Re: labels [Re: Logan]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state





Edited by Danbuff (12/20/08 01:08 PM)
Edit Reason: made it a new reply

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#268056 - 12/20/08 01:08 PM Re: labels [Re: Sans Logos]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
OK, I have some feedback here.

First of all, I see validity in each of the posts on the topic of labels. Each of us form our opinions based on our perceptions and experiences. I actually agree a little with most of the statements. Like Ron, I am not defined by my sexual preferences but sometimes it is merely an identifier or a qualifier. But being gay does not cancel out my other qualities or does it diminish me as a professional, a single male, a Christian, a woodworker, citizen or anything else. I don't assume a label as we call it is the sum of a person either. However, it seems it is a necessary component in some cases because it can be a common denominator.

If we have our own negative views on a label or title applied to our self, perhaps it is our own discomfort with that part of who we are. That may or may not be the case but sexual preference still makes a strong statement in modern culture.

As Ron states identifying as such,separates something (us) from the whole of the fabric. He has a point but to me it is perception. We are part of the whole but we have other parts that contribute to the whole. (The whole being society and culture). Perception.....is the glass half full or half empty?

Another thought worth making seems that labels are very necessary because if we went to buy a can of soup in a store that sold just soup with unlabeled cans...we would have not a clue as to what it is about, its flavor and so on. If we did not know the bank teller from the branch manager how could we make the right choice for our need?

These are simplistic comparisons but they point to the need for a label as a distinguishing but needed feature and without the label or qualifier, we would be less evolved, confused and in some level of chaos. Indeed these are apples to oranges but we know the difference between the fruits(no pun intended) by the identifying characteristics. A tasty fruit salad is the sum of its parts.

For all of my other issues in life, being gay is no longer an issue for me and I mostly do not care who knows my sexuality unless it can be used against me say in employment discrimination. So thankfully my sexual preferences and desires sexually don't confuse me. Rather it clears the air and makes it simpler.

Historically Black people were forbidden to be part of the larger culture and prevented memberships in clubs, beauty pageants, colleges and such. That is why they created the United Negro College fund and Miss Black America back in the day. The same holds true for gay bars and today Gay people have separate clubs. To me that history is connected to the labels or qualifiers. Labels and perceptions caused new groups and more labels. I hope I am not losing the reader.

Some see it as empowering and a sense of pride while others see it as a stigma. To some it is okay and to others it is unnecessary.

Indeed labels can be hurtful or empowering but I don't think they need to be good or bad but regardless they are both. I doubt it will ever change and often times they are quite important. As a gay man, I bristle at images of drag queens, effeminate men and leather scenes. Those frequent stereotypes don't apply to me but they are part of the larger fabric. I enjoy the element of surprise when people say, I never knew you were gay. I am not like the labels but I am changing the face of homosexuality in a sense. Perceptions are at work here.

Finally the last example is all of us survivors. The label is both horrible and good. One is a victim and one is a survivor but both are fitting labels. I hate that we were victims but embrace our survival and strength. We all have labels and we all use them but in our politically correct world that has tried to level the playing field, our culture seems overly sensitive now versus when there was little sensitivity in the past. Perception is part of comfort level.

Just another perspective!

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#268269 - 12/22/08 06:44 AM Re: labels [Re: Danbuff]
cole Offline


Registered: 07/29/08
Posts: 10
Loc: NC
In response, to canned soup labels, I see your point. At the grocery store one would assume that all foods are labeled. A grocery with no labels? I am shopping elsewhere. When I introduce myself I say "Hello, I am Mr. John Doe" The procedure of adding ones sexuality title is not necessary. The people who are trusted friends know, whatever impression the world gets of me is not my obligation. Private, intimate moments between consenting adults is there business. There is no right or wrong answer here, geographically speaking, it good ol' country guys. "Deliverance" thats how I would desribe it here.

Thanks Cole

_________________________
"To always look life in the face...To always look life in the face and to know it for what it is and to know it for what it is not and then put it away." Virginia Woolfe, "The Hours"

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#268276 - 12/22/08 01:21 PM Re: labels [Re: cole]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
Cole,
First of all welcome... I see you are newer here. Of course there is no right or wrong answer. That said how we CHOOSE to identify and relate with is on our terms but conversely allowing others to assume something can sometimes create unnecessary pressure on gay people who worry they have to behave a certain way to get by or fit in. Again it is a choice. For me, I think we need some labels unless and until they become burdensome or hurtful.

If we are invisible, we miss a lot but we as gay people don't have to wear it on our sleeve either. You are indeed correct that we can choose whom we share that with. For me coming out was huge relief but I know it is not for everyone. In the end I still believe identifiers are as important as having an identity.

I am sure this discussion could go on and on.

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#268506 - 12/24/08 03:50 AM Re: labels [Re: Danbuff]
cole Offline


Registered: 07/29/08
Posts: 10
Loc: NC
Sometimes my communication skills are not the best and now I can do a better job. Recently, I was asked by a pastor of a church, I only visted to repair a sound system. It went againist my slightly religious person that a clergy would ask something like that. It threw me for a second that someone would ask me that. I am not in a closet, people who know me, love me, for me. Gossip is juicy here in a small town and I was surprised that the Christmas Season, disregard for pain and suffering and poverty in area was not being addressed, instead of my sexuality. So, I followed up his question with what i just said. Hey, somedays are butch and somedays not, show me spider, I will holler. Sorry for the communication error on my part, just a good ol cub here.

Col

_________________________
"To always look life in the face...To always look life in the face and to know it for what it is and to know it for what it is not and then put it away." Virginia Woolfe, "The Hours"

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#268541 - 12/24/08 02:00 PM Re: labels [Re: cole]
Danbuff Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 249
Loc: NY state
Cole, your fine bud!
There is no right and wrong sometimes. There is certainly no recipe or handbook for dealing with questions about our sexuality because we are all in different places.

I understand rural small community life is hard. It is as if you're on display and gossip indeed travels fast. Studies show mental health is less likely dealt with because of stigma and small towns mean people are more visible when coming and going to and from an office. The gay thing also applies.

The clergy may have been judgmental, curious or interested...Who knows? It can be awkward. I hate silver fish with all those legs I see in damp areas in summers... usually my kitchen sink or bathroom. I want to gag but we all have something which creates a reaction. I think your answer was excellent and clever. You communicate fine!!!
Dan

_________________________
When you stumble, make it part of the dance.

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#283579 - 04/14/09 05:15 AM Re: labels [Re: Danbuff]
cbfull Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio
As a result of the time I have invested in this site, I am constantly reminded of the valuable feelings of trust and respect I felt as I shared my most painful and frightening emotions.

One of the most valuable things I came to realize was that the labels we have used on each other for so long have been such a colossal waste of everyone's time, and ultimately useless and harmful when applied to people. I have known both men and women who would normally fit into a strict category of a label that find comfort and importance in seeking actions that are clearly in defiance of the labels.

I believe that we should take pride in denouncing the use of labels on each other and leaving ourselves open to experiences that are in clear contrast. We are all intelligent and naturally curious beings and that is something to be embraced and celebrated.

My two cents.

_________________________
Craig

Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

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#283616 - 04/14/09 02:03 PM Re: labels [Re: cbfull]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
I find labels most unhelpful as I seek to recover from csa

we ought to be accepted as we are to pursue our journey

I am not gay

I'd like to think I can be open about my struggle with unwanted and uninvited ssa without being labeled or put in a gay box into which I neither fit or belong.

I do appreciate the many gays who understand my struggle

Nathan 5




Edited by nathan555 (04/14/09 02:11 PM)
_________________________
5 depending on God's grace gives hope
6 my dark side , my hurt inner being my struggle
8 looking to the day of overcomming

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#283626 - 04/14/09 03:15 PM Re: labels [Re: nathan555]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Nathan, I'm sorry, but Gay IS a label..........

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#283635 - 04/14/09 04:40 PM Re: labels [Re: joelRT]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
.



Edited by myboyhoodfears (08/31/09 03:02 PM)
_________________________
Post Nubilia Pheobus

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#283657 - 04/14/09 10:30 PM Re: labels [Re: myboyhoodfears]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
myboyhoodfears

"i find my response is usually something to the effect of: "aren't you really just asking if you can have sex with me?."

I don't say it but I feel it.

I feel trapped by their niggling
if I say no
"arn't you supressing your feelings"

if I acknowledge any such feelings

they will then pressure me into having sex with them.

hence I am comfortable with

"I have csa induced uninvited unwanted ssa"

yes there are ssa feelings
but don't even think about exploiting them
because it's not a part of me
its an unwanted intrusion
but there by a total bastard

my identity lies elsewhere

my sexual orientation lies elsewhere

my dynasty lies elsewhere

Nathan


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#283673 - 04/14/09 11:56 PM Re: labels [Re: nathan555]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
Quote:
I feel trapped by their niggling
if I say no
"arn't you supressing your feelings"

if I acknowledge any such feelings

they will then pressure me into having sex with them.

hence I am comfortable with

"I have csa induced uninvited unwanted ssa"


hey nathan...

yeah i totally understand...
there maybe some aspects of who we are that require us to apply labels to ourselves as was indicated in earlier posts in this thread...but i do not see labels as relevant when it comes to many things,..and sexual identity is one of those things.

thats why i respond the way i do, to questions like: "are you gay?"...it puts the whole thing right out in the open, no false pretenses,..if they are asking for sex...my answer then is easily..."NO, take a hike,"...and if its just curiosity then they are left trying to sort out why its any of their business.

_________________________
Post Nubilia Pheobus

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#283686 - 04/15/09 01:58 AM Re: labels [Re: nathan555]
ModTeam Offline


Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 721
Loc: Everywhere
Originally Posted By: nathan555
I am not gay


Fellows, as this conversation ensues please respect the purpose of this forum as stated in the heading:

Quote:
Discussions about issues specific to being a survivor and gay.


As such the topics and conversations should be pertinent to the support of those for whom the forum has been established.

Please take all place further remarks about sexual identity confusion to the appropriate forum.

Your attention and cooperation is greatly appreciated,

The ModTeam

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WARNING: Private messages sent to this account are checked irregularly due to personnel and time constraints. Please send messages directly to a moderator by going to the main forum list, select the moderator's name (NOT ModTeam), and then click Send a Private Message in the Contact section. Alternatively, or if there is no named moderator, you may send a PM to any moderator.

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