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#25803 - 12/04/02 09:19 AM The Chicken or the Egg?????????
James_dup1 Offline

Registered: 04/13/02
Posts: 1332
Loc: Wyoming
Hi All,
I've just started reading "Betrayed as Boys" (thanks Richard it's great). In the first part of this book he defines two different type of abuse "Contact Abuse" and "Noncontact sexual abuse". It is the last one I want to talk about. In the book (page 25) it says "Noncontact sexual abuse includes a wide range of behaviors, some more easily documented than other: masturbating or therwise being sexual in front of a child; exposing gentials to a child for sexual gratifcation; encourgaing a child to be sexual with others; practicing voyeurism; photographing a child for sexual purposes; showing a chid pornography or making it available to him; engaging in sexualized talk with a child or confiding to him about sexual issues; ridicuiing a child's sexual development, prefreences, or organs; forcing a child to dress in an overrevealing manner; stropping oneself and or a child on order to hit or spank him, or getting sexual pleasure from spanking; employing sexually charged verbal or emotional abuse; having a child witness the sexual abuse of others; using sexual punishments; manifesting unusual interrest in and asking questions about sexuality; taking too much interest in haths at an inapproprite age; applying medication on genitals or chealing genitals when a child is old enough to do it himself (this does include contact, of course, but is usually to subtle to be consided contact abuse); and employing seductive looks or talk to a child that violate generational or personal boundaries." Ok thats the quote from the book.
Now, after reading this I started thinking about my life and relized that I was "set up" to be abused. What I mean is that lots of these things happened to me even before I was 6 which my first contact sexual abuse happened.
Anyway, I was reading the book and looking at the dates from the different studies and started thinking. (ok time for everyone to get scared) It seems the incedent's of abuse on boys is on the rise. Now, as I read the quote I wrote I applied it to my life, and things my sisters did or said, things like that. So then I thought about how the world has changed sence I have been born (1968, just in case you wanted to know). I wonder if society is also doing non contact abuse of our childern? What I mean is, in the 60's there was free love....nothing for people to walk around naked.....nothing for women to burn there bra' was a free time. I was also a time that a lot of people that abused us grew up in. So, by that thinking did the enviorment around us just help the ones that abused us do it. We didnt think to much of it, it has been burned into our brain that seeing a naked person is ok........after all we seen them all the time as kids (of course I'm speaking in general here). I guess I was just wondering why it is that it seems that the cases of boys being abused and the way that the world looks at sex goes hand and hand. If "we" are just helping the bastards that do this by desynthasizing our kids to sex. I just wondered how many people watched victoy secretes underwear show? Then I wonder how many of the ones watching it also had there children with them. So by this when someone does aproch a child will it be easier for them. After all they see it everyday. I know from my personal experence, the noncontact sexual abuse (which I never looked at as abuse untill reading this book), made it easier for the one that did contactal abuse. By the time it started at 6 I had alread heard most of it. How many people sit and talk about sex or there sex life with a kid in the room and as lots do just forget that kids hear as well? So was the time of the 50's and the 60's a time of freedom or a time of chaining of our children?
I sure hope this came out just seemed to me that boys being abused took a sharp rise as did the sexual in this case revalution would be chaining and not freeing as one would think.

I have more issues than Rolling Stone!

#25804 - 12/04/02 12:23 PM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
zadok1 Offline

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
You know one thing I think is important to consider in the rise of abuse, is whether it is a real increase, or are men only coming forward more? I think a lot of the old-world male traits are finally slipping away. It seems to me that as men try to become more nurturing and better people, we are coming to a point where we are finally willing to admit we have issues that need dealt with. I think much of this has been there all along, but only now with avenues such as the web are men seeking help.

There is a board that I have visited for three years now, to share and talk. I have noticed a dramatic increase in people coming to sites like these. Clearly, the internet is providing males a means that they feel safe taking the initial steps toward getting help. The internet is also, unfortunately, bringing many people’s problems to a head, as they fall into the porn and sexual side of it. Many of the people I have come to know went from a somewhat controllable problem, to being totally out of control because of the easy access to adult material.

Let’s look at the crisis with the Catholic Priests. Many of them had been abusing boys for since the sixties and seventies, but those are the ones that are alive today. How many were simply covered up, and all the involved people have died, so they will never come out? I suspect sexual abuse has always been there at a much higher rate than we have allowed ourselves to consider. For countless generations, it was ignored, and simply not talked about. I think many of the fathers and uncles who abused those here now, were themselves abused as children. It is an endless cycle that we are only now recognizing as the major problem that it is.

Even in today’s world, how many have told only to be further humiliated or not believed? I am surprised, and would like to believe that my family supports my recovery, but the fact is it seems more abused people are scorned and not believed than supported. I have talked with men and women, over and over, because they are struggling more with not being believed than with the abuse. When a parent calls you crazy or a liar, and fails to acknowledge the abuse, it is like being abused all over again. Then there is our fantastic justice system that makes every avenue possible for the abuser to get off, while leaving the victims to suffer. I would hate to think how much abuse has been swept under the rug, and is now some deep family secrete. It is far past time for us as a society to protect our women and children from this garbage, and to address the cycle of abuse that has been passed from generation to generation like some treasured heirloom.

Okay, I’ll step down from my soapbox. I only wanted to throw in some thoughts on why the abuse rate is on the rise. I think in a very sexually charged world, it is truly going up, but I think it was far more common all along than we allow ourselves to believe. JMHO. jeff

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

#25805 - 12/04/02 04:44 PM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
New to this Offline

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 138
Loc: Mississippi
Hey James,

You touched on a very sensitive subject, and it goes much deeper than we can address here. Our attitudes toward sex work something like speed limits. If the posted speed limit is 65, most people (around here anyway) drive at least 70, and nobody is stopped for going 75. Our attitudes toward sex work much the same.

There will always be those who exceed the limits. We have lowered the threshold for acceptable sexual behavior to the point that for some, who would exceed the limit anyway, there is virtually no limit.

We have freed ourselves from the monogamous relationships of the ‘50s. We revolted in the ‘60s. I was abused in the ‘70s. The sexual revolution has virtually removed any limits to sexual activity. The message we send is that “if it feels good do it”. Our children are being raised with no boundaries. Just imagine their potential to harm themselves and others.

"Knowledge itself is power" Francis Bacon

#25806 - 12/04/02 05:11 PM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
Wuamei Offline

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
I'll begin by agreeing with Jeff. I think it's both: there is an increase in reporting by men (and women); there is an increase in abuses suffered by men (and women).

I strongly believe that the sexual revolution of the 50's & especially the 60's "hippy free love" culture strongly contributed to both increases. As has the sexual "openness" & "freedom" that has been on the rise (ok I've noticed the sick pun & I'll leave it! \:o ) ever since. Which has indeed only served to make us less truly open & intimate and more bound than ever by sexual hangups we didn't even know existed not too long ago.

You see, I am a product, an abused toy, a cast-off of the "sexual devolution" as I call it (or how about devil-ution ?). Especially of the 60s hippy movement, tho my abuse began apparently began almost from my birth in '56.

For me, it all started so young I don't know whether the contact or noncontact abuse came 1st.
My earliest abuse memory is of incest by both parents when I was no more than 2 or 3. I think the 2 kinds of abuse have always gone together as part of my life, thruout my childhood years.

So much so that I finally suppressed & dissociated the contact abuses, and never even thot of the noncontact incidents as abuses.

Until about 18 months ago, when I finally admitted how sexually compulsive & dysfunctional I was, & began seeking recovery via my T & online. Then my SA memories began to resurface, beginning with the last contact incident, rape by a gay couple my mother sold me to when I was 10.

Driven now to seek help also for this, I found an online pamphlet called, "When Trust Is Broken," which mentioned briefly some of the things Richard talks about in "Betrayed As Boys" (which I've got to get & read!).

What I came to see, James, is that from very early on, I was set up not only to be more & more abused, but also to be more & more sexually compulsive & dysfunctional. A set up I fell right into. I was also set up to be a sex offender. By the grace of God that never happened.

Everything you mentioned from Richard's book about noncontact sex applied to me, most of it from early on & often. Except I'm not sure about the spanking things or the pics of me, and had no sexual punishments of incidents of having to witness SA of others that I recall.

My mother regularly had sex in front of me or nearby with the door open, almost always went around the house nude or very near it, encouraged incest by my aunt & abuse by at least 2 "babysitters," showed me pics of herself, encouraged me masturbating & viewing porn, took me to a nudist camp, and ridiculed anytime I showed romantic interest or desire for real intimacy with any girl.
*********************END TRIGGER*****************

IMNSHO, our society here in the U.S., in particular & as a whole, is in itself sexually overexposed, addicted, abusive & dysfunctional. Or at least many things in our society strongly encourage all this.

My jury is still out on whether or not this is a mass intentional conspiracy. But at best, it is unquestionably a deliberate attempt by many to sell sexual ideas by selling products in a sexual manner, by exploiting human sexuality & thus exploiting & abusing humans sexually.

Victoria's Secret & Sports Illustrated Swimsuit TV shows, as well as mags & catalogs in print & on the net, are two of the most visible & easily accessible examples of this. Then there's Playboy & Penthouse, movies, adult bookstores & ever deeper & darker porn. Especially on the net. The ease of which, as James talked about, makes it so easy to be so much more compulsive. I speak from painful experience here.

But perhaps just as dangerous in their suttelty are the "soft porn" (an oxymoron, at least for me) scenes in TV dramas, "verbal porn" or constant sexual innuendos & "jokes" (ha ha) in sitcoms, and "commercial porn", all of which are increasing dramatically in number & amount of (over)exposure.

Throw in the over"protection" of perps, slight & slighting attention to victims, overworked & understaffed law enforcement, the ACLU whining about freedoms of speech & press yadda yadda, abortion on demand, sex "education" & free condoms in schools, a money & politics dependent criminal "justice" system I don't even wanna get started on , "political correctness" (another oxymoron) and walla:

A society that sets its citizens up to be abused & abusers, addicted & dysfunctional, then whines about the rise in teen pregnancies, unwed single parent mothers, "those sexual perverts," the lack of jail space to hold them, the increases in people who are sexually abused & the need to help them, how many tax dollars this is using up, yadda yadda etc ad nauseum.

I'm sorry but: DDUUUHHHHH!!!
When did we forget how to add 2 + 2 and get 4?!
This is like saturating all our fresh water with salt, then whining with wonderment that everybody's thirsty & can't get enuf, & how much its costing to get the salt out of people's water! We are so sexually saturated, overexposed, desensitived & overcharged--what do we expect? Aiieee yi yiii!

As an adult (at least chronologically) I take responsibility for my behaviors & thots.

But I am PO'd. Not just at my mother, who was abused herself, nor my grandparents, nor my father, nor any of my other perps.

No, I'm also PO'd at a society that has done a lot to make me (us) this way, which IMNSHO has perpetrated SA against me (us), yet wants to keep me (us) quiet, our noses stuck in unseen corners somewhere like we are the bad boys (and I do think all of this is especially true of boys & men), to shut up & take it like a man!

And I'm PO'd at women who flash their bodies all over movie, TV & computer screens for money, and the women & men who profit along with them, not caring about the damage they're doing, tho looking around they should be well aware of it.

And yes I'm PO'd that I, not they, am the one paying the bills--of many kinds!--for all of this!
That my family must also pay the dues!

My family, my brightest bright spot of my life. Thank God for their love & faithfulness. Thank God that with us, with our daughters, this damned vicious cycle of abuse has been broken! The chains of "sexual freedom" have been cast off!

OK, I suppose along with that "trigger warning" I should also have given a "soapbox warning!" But it's safe, I'm down now. ;\)

If anyone read this rambling ranting vent to this point, I hope you found something helpful there, or at least not hurtful.

Becuz I gotta say, it felt damn good to me! \:D

Take care men


"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

#25807 - 12/04/02 10:10 PM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
asher Offline

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 19
Loc: St. Louis
I'm sure there are at least a few people on this board who would respectfully agree to disagree with the notion that sexual openness is responsible for an increase in sex abuse. (And of course I DO respect all your opinions and thoughts.)

I was abused in the 1980s, an era defined by Reagan, rampant consumerism and a (brief) recommitment to sexual conservatism. No doubt many 20-somethings like me were abused during that conservative decade.

Consider the case of Catholic priests who live in a world in which sex of any kind is expressly forbidden. How many of those men would have chosen a different path if they weren't sexually repressed? Hard to say. But it can't be mere coincidence that so many of them became perps.

If there is an increase in sexual abuse, I would posit that it has less to do with changing attitudes about sex and more to do with our changing society as a whole. Certainly increased access to porn is part of it; no disagreement about that. But another part is the fact that Americans are working longer hours than ever to maintain our extravagant (by the rest of the world's standards) lifestyles. Our families are falling apart, yet many adults can't (or choose not to) find the time to properly care for their children or spouses. Children from broken homes (or latch-key kids like me) are easy targets. They are left vulnerable by their parents' frequent absence. That's what happened to me: A babysitter took advantage of me and my two brothers, and my parents were never the wiser.

Just some thoughts.


#25808 - 12/05/02 02:36 AM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
Wuamei Offline

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Asher, I appreciate your thots. I think its both. There is no doubt the breakdown of the family, our putting things before people materialism, & our selfish individualism have all contributed to all kinds of abusiveness in our society, none any more than sexual abuse.

Tho its my opinion (and thats all it is) that the "sexual conservatism" of the Reagan era was a "spit into the wind" not embraced by the media, most people in power, or the general populace. From my limited perception as one who has lived thru the 60s, 70s, 80s etc, I think the sexual revolution has only continued to build, with SA increasing right along with it.

Along with this, I think those who have been sexually abused have become increasingly more free to talk about it & even report it.

Now I, being brot up in a sex saturated home in the free love hippy movement, was too confused to even remember or think about myself as being abused, much less talk about or report it.

I was in a broken home and a latchkey kid, responsible for the care of my younger & handicapped brother from very early on. For me SA started with my infancy in the late 50's, with incest which continued on thru the 60's, added to by other SA from nonfamily members including at least 2 babysitters. My mother knew but didn't care; she was my prime perp.

Now I know & I'm learning to live with it & sometimes even beyond it.

Something else I know that I'm sure we can all agree on: whether or not SA is on the increase, for whatever reason, it is still happening, and one incident is one too many!


"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

#25809 - 12/05/02 02:49 PM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
zadok1 Offline

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
lets face it. this growing trend is a composite of so many factors that we could go on and on. any one might cause problems, but combined, they are tearing the world appart.

it reminds me of even my struggle. you begin with the addictive symptoms, so you go look for help getting out of the porn or whatever is yur thing. as you work through that you find you have emotional issues, like being closed off and cold. then you find out that you were abused, then you uncover the molestation, and on and on.

i once had someone compare recovery to an onion, full of layers. the reasons for the decline of behaviors and morality is like that too. one of my favorite quotes, and i can't recall where i read it, is IT IS EASIER TO RAISE WHOLE CHILDREN THAN TO FIX BROKEN MEN. if kids were cared for and protected, many of these issues wouldn't be here. i am 37, and suffered the sexual abuse early, around 1970-71, but my mother, raised in the 40's suffered abuse then. this isnt just a problem today. Solomon points out that there is nothing new under the sun. what is here now, was happening since the dawn of this earth, and will continue as long as flesh walks. unfortunate, but it is just the way it is.

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

#25810 - 12/07/02 01:11 PM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
George Offline

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 335
Loc: NY metro **PM's are welcomed
It's on the rise now and rising faster.

True, more and more are coming forward about their abuse, thank God for that. That's not why, though.

True, sexual abuse has always been around, but I think its gonna get a lot worse...

About only a third (1/3) of the babies born today are born to married parents & only half those marriages will stay together. Broken, never existing homes & disfuntional homes are the biggest risk factors for any kind of abuse. Just think how many stories there will be out there 20 to 30 years from know, sad. Society's values have changed for the worse, for sure. Kids are the ones paying the high price for the now adult's new found "freedoms".

What can we do about it? Keep our little corners of the world safe. If your married with kids, do your best to keep it a loving, happy & safe home for your family & friends. An intact, loving & involved family reduce the abuse risk significantly.

By us breaking the abuse cycle in our own lives makes a great impact on the rest of the world, makes it a better place. Think about it.

Let's try to make it a better world, even if it's one family at a time.


My Updated (2017) Story, it focuses on the abuse, the aftermath & poor coping mechanisms & breakthrough...Healing ;

#25811 - 12/07/02 02:25 PM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
Wuamei Offline

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Yes I agree, Zadok, that SA is wrapped up in a combination, and a vicious cycle, of various problems. I like the onion analogy--the deeper you go, the more you cry, but you do get closer to the core, to taking it apart. Also like the quote of Solomon--again, the less we learn from history, the more we are doomed to repeat it. When it comes to SA, I wonder if we're learning much as a society...

Yes I agree, George, the vicious cycle of various problems is spinning faster & getting bigger & stronger like a whirlpool, sucking in & drowning more & more people. Indeed never existing, broken & dysfunctional homes (mine was the latter 2 for sure) are the biggest problem, one that's increasing. In each generation, it seems adults gain ever greater "freedoms," & the children pay ever greater prices. Then we wonder why our children don't understand us or even rebel against us?!

As you said, Zadok, "IT IS EASIER TO RAISE WHOLE CHILDREN THAN TO FIX BROKEN MEN. [I think The Dean uses that or a similar quote for his signature statement.] if kids were cared for and protected, many of these issues wouldn't be here."

And as you said, George, "By us breaking the abuse cycle in our own lives makes a great impact on the rest of the world, makes it a better place. Think about it. Let's try to make it a better world, even if it's one family at a time."

Both of those statements point to another factor that comes to mind for me whenever the rise in sexual abuse (and other kinds for that matter) is discussed: Abortion.

Many will disagree with me, and I am a shameless pro-life advocate. Abortion is a very personal issue for me (re: my poem, "I Wonder What the World Would Be..." in Survivor Poetry).

There is not yet much statistical evidence for this. That's becuz the abortion moneymaking industry & pro-abortion dominance in the media, public education & politics cover up most of it. Yet there is some leaking out. Not to mention what to me are overwhelming anecdotal (experiences) and what I call "just take a look around you" evidences.

To me there is no doubt, & I have no doubt this will be proven (if it hasn't been already): There is a direct correlation between the increase in sexual (& other) abuse, and the legalization of abortion on demand in the USA in 1973 (the infamous Roe v Wade Supreme Court decision, now rejected by "Roe" herself as based on false evidence, media hype, personal vendetta & lies).

To me, this just makes sense. How can we believe TV murder & violence desensitizes us & increases violence & murder, but not believe this about the real horrible violent murder that is abortion?--in most cases, I'm swift to add.

A people with "a license to kill" their own children before or as they are born is bound to have increasingly less respect for human life & well-being in general, especially for children.

I've read so many stories lately about parents trashing (literally), choking, beating, starving & abandoning for dead their children, just a few days or weeks after birth. Surely at least some of these people are thinking, "What's the difference? A few days/weeks ago & I could have just aborted it anyway!"

In our "advanced modern" society (like the Roman Empire?!), we seem to be returning to the law of the jungle, the caveman: "Might makes right" and
"Survival of the fittest." What chance do babies & children have in such an environment?!

Us! We are their chance! Adults! At least those of us who still have a conscience, sensitivity, some compassion, and value each unique human life as worthy of life.

Who fits that bill better than us survivors?! We, many of whom ourselves could easily have been aborted (re: my poem)! We, especially as male survivors, among the most abused, neglected & ignored outcasts of this or any society!

I'm convinced that as we, in our lives, our families, our circles of influence, break out of & put an end to the vicious cycles of abuse we've been trapped in, abuse will decline, including the fatal abuse called abortion. Which will in turn lead to a renewed respect for human life & still less abuse. Instead of a vicious cycle we will have a vital circle of life!

OK, so I'm a dreamer. That's one of the main things that keep me going... And I doubt if I'm the only one...

[Unashamed, Wuame steps down off his soapbox...]

"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

#25812 - 12/07/02 10:00 PM Re: The Chicken or the Egg?????????
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I saw a piece on a daytime TV show the other day - usual daytime trash - but it made me think a bit sideways on the topic.

What they were on about was the way pop videos were getting sexier, and what effect this has on the young audience.
So they wheeled a family of 9 into the studio and played the new Christine Aguilera ( maybe not quite right, John Lee Hooker's more my taste ) video.
Have you seen it ? bloody hell ! For guys like me it's dangerous - I nearly had a heart attack...
But many of them are the same, Kylie Britney etc.

Ayway, the kids from age 6 to about 18 with just one boy gave their reaction - "nothing wrong with that" They did realise it was sexy and very provocotive, but they also understood it was just a video.

This is an attitude I see with my nieces and nephews, they know so much more than we did from so many different sources.
And one of the things they understand is that adults having sex with kids is wrong.
Their parents tell them, the media tells them and the teachers tell them.
Nobody told me back in the 60's.

I know it will still happen, but I feel that the openess about all aspects of sex has made it easier for kids to talk about it with adults.
Hopefully they can shout up when someone tries it on.


Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau


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