Newest Members
bushydw, Teddyboy1969, Ransuko, Lovme4me, MRSAS
13556 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
Archnut (62), CruxFidelis (36), HenryinJax (39), Jesse92 (25), psychfred (2017), weejimmy (58)
Who's Online
6 registered (Esterio, anxietydepressio, Rich1967, Lei, 2 invisible), 62 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
13,556 Registered Members
75 Forums
70,494 Topics
492,297 Posts

Most users ever online: 418 @ 07/02/12 11:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#24619 - 08/02/05 09:25 PM getting off
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
I have been surfing around today looking for details on how child abuse cases actually work out in court. We have a few examples of guys here engaged in such cases, so I thought let's have a look. Here is something I found on a site that turns out to be lawyers defending such cases:

Quote:
If you've been accused of child abuse, you cannot afford second-best representation. Our skilled criminal defense attorneys practice aggressive, proactive and highly-creative defense strategies to protect your rights. The results are outstanding. In fact, most of our cases never go to trial, and many are dismissed!
Is this true? Does anyone know? What do they mean by "most of our cases never go to trial"? The charge is bargained down before they get to court? I am stunned at how ignorant I am about all this.

Whatever the answer is, it sure does show that guys like Rik and Andrei and Kevin are showing incredible courage in pursuing these cases.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#24620 - 08/02/05 09:56 PM Re: getting off
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6845
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Larry, without resorting to the MJ case.
The barristers go through the evidence, and they can sure find ways of having charges dropped.

Its called plea bargaining where the defendent will answer to a lesser charge or not admit anything.

If he agrees guilty to the lesser charge then he will get some sentence, the more grave charge would then go to court.

It is sure difficult for any child to give accurate account because of the nature of this stuff as you will agree.

Barristers have ways of rubbishing the account of a child, which is sad, but money can get you the best barrister, and some of them can get you off with murder.

Yes, it does show incredible courage, and we will have to be for them, they are brave,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#24621 - 08/03/05 03:52 AM Re: getting off
sophiesdad Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 462
Loc: Florida
Larry:

You've been out of the US for too long . With enough money in this country anymore, you can just about buy anything - even getting away with murder. (oops am I alluding to the OJ case?)

It's a sad commentary, but many lawyers are royally screwing this country up (hope I don't offend any attorneys in this forum). I know that there are people who may be truly wrongly accused and they deserve every chance possible - our justice system is not perfect and there are people in prison who are truly innocent. But, I really get angry at those who get off scott-free when they are guilty as hell.

It's just a way of life, IMHO, in the US.

SD

_________________________
There are no unresolved issues - they just didn't resolve themselves the way we would have liked. "Grinder and Bandler - Neuro-Linguistic Programming"

Top
#24622 - 08/03/05 03:53 AM Re: getting off
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Larry / Ste - I don't know about plea bargains in the UK which is where I am bringing the case. I did post recently that the case had been delayed, because there is now an additional complainant other than myself. The new complainants case is to be linked with mine, which is the cause of the delay.

I still don't know when/if the Crown Court case will occur. I do know that the CPS are currently very keen to take this further.

Where the Lawyers may have a problem in attempting to create a deal in my case, is that to all appearances, I have made a success of my life (despite my psychological problems).

I am financially stable and am making no financial claim against my abuser who lives on benefits (and has for many years). His everyday life is financed by the state...mine is financed through employment.

My whole aim in taking him to court is to :

1/ Achieve an admission of guilt.
2/ To prevent there being further victims of his perversions.

I don't see that they have anything to plea bargain with. Maybe he'll just die before it gets to court & give us all a rest.

My memory of the events is almost photographic and I am used to speaking to audiences. I also now have the power within myself to put bullies in their place (whatever position they hold in life - lawyer / judge etc).

I don't doubt that going to court will cause me personal difficulties, but I have absoultely no intention of accepting a plea bargain off anyone. It's pure and simple - he did it, he has to admit it, he has to serve the sentence.

I purely demand justice! It is my right!

Regardless of what happens, he has been identified in our Town News Letter & everyone knows what he is now (apparently many had suspected).

If Lawyers actively advertise their services in the way that you have stated, then I consider that they are most likely paedophiles themselves. Either that or they just like money that is covered in the blood of children.

Best wishes Rik...be strong (I am even more determined to win now).

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

Top
#24623 - 08/03/05 08:45 AM Re: getting off
sabooka Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 209
Loc: I would like to know also
Rik,

You are a brave and strong man. Thank you for your courage and steadfast.

LONG LIVE THE KING.

Jonathan

_________________________
My happiness is not dependant on other people's misery.

Top
#24624 - 08/03/05 11:08 AM Re: getting off
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Rik,

Quote:
If Lawyers actively advertise their services in the way that you have stated, then I consider that they are most likely paedophiles themselves. Either that or they just like money that is covered in the blood of children.
Yes, that quote is from a website of defense attorneys. It appears to be a kind of search engine. You fill in an online form with brief details and your zip code, and I suppose you get back the address of lawyer near you, or you get contected, something like that.

Their attitude shocked me as much as it did you. It is as much as to say that most victims who press charges are liars. I don't understand how anyone could even write up copy like this, much less put it on the net in a professional website.

I am so glad you are standing firm, and I hope I didn't sound like I was suggesting you should do anything less. I was just wondering how they can say that "most of our cases never go to trial". What is the reality behind that? Is that because deals are made beforehand? Or is it because the case is very difficult to prove? Or what?

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#24625 - 08/03/05 02:33 PM Re: getting off
Kirk Wayne Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Shrewsbury UK
There is also an explosion of "How to avoid conviction" websites on the net.

Plea bargaining does indeed go on in this country. My second abuser who was on trial held his hand up to a more recent charge, I suspect on the advice of his counsel.

The reason for this?

If he had not followed that advice he would have been brought into the frame with Jonathan Kings links to the Walton Hop disco (where this perp worked as a DJ) and that would not have done his defence any good whatsoever. He was find 300 and put on the sex offenders register for five years. for the second time I didnt get to give evidence and that was the fault of the Crown Prosecution Service.

Defence barristers in the UK are concerned with one thing and one thing only getting their clients off scot free and they will achieve this anyway they can and that includes verbally r*aping the accuser which was the case in the King trial by the acerbic defence barrister Ronald Thwaites QC. But I do wish I could have given evidence as I was called to give evidence at the Old Bailey but the CPS threw a spanner into the works yet again.

Kirk
"Instigate change, as it appears it wont come naturally in our cause. Sometimes it needs a little forcing".


Top
#24626 - 08/04/05 12:36 AM Re: getting off
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Larry - it's OK I understand exactly what you were saying in your post & understand that you are fully supporting myself and others that are seeking justice.

Maybe some of our cases don't get to court, because we expect something even worse to happen to us if we don't do what we are told. Maybe some of us see Defence Lawyers as an Authoritarian Adult & therefore they must be right. Maybe we revert to child mode and give in to the adult.

Bollocks to that, they are 'educated sleazy bullies'. I expect that every dirty trick in the book will be pulled out, but I intend to stick to the facts. I also intend to be assertive (even if I am **itting myself).

I think that anyone that advertises in this way should be struck off for life for bringing their proffession into disrepute.

Come on Cheri Blair - how about it?

Best wishes ...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

Top
#24627 - 08/04/05 12:42 AM Re: getting off
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6845
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name, hey, I got this in an email today.

How fitting is that!

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#24628 - 08/04/05 12:52 AM Re: getting off
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Here is the link for the site I was quoting from:

http://www.pennsylvaniacriminaldefenselawyers.com/child-abuse.cfm

On that same page they refer the perp to all sorts of useful information: rights of victims, signs that a child has been abused, etc.

This same firm offers help with such other problems as murder, drug dealing, embezzlement, assault, carjacking, and so on.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#24629 - 08/07/05 01:37 AM Re: getting off
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Larry - I've read the link & you're correct; the implications are disgusting.

I'm about to e-mail a national newspaper (UK/England) to see what there views are on this topic. I'd be interested if they can tell me how to get this information to Bush/Blair for an opinion.

*Cheri Blair is 'big on human rights', though it would be nice to see her concentrating her efforts on those that deserve support.

Best wishes..Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

Top
#24630 - 08/07/05 06:09 AM Re: getting off
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Rik,

Good idea. As I said, I was shocked. We all know, on the one hand, that anyone accused of a crime should have an opportunity for a good defense, and on the other, that some lawyers are disreputable. But I was still unprepared to find a whole coalition of lawyers coming very close to boasting that even if you are guilty they still have a good chance of getting you off with their "aggressive, proactive and highly-creative defense strategies".

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#24631 - 08/09/05 01:52 AM Re: getting off
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6845
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Everybody, yes I am making my own comment here, and it is this.

I was talking to a barrister who represented a guy of 15yo, who worked with youths. The charges were, that he r*ped two boys.

He is one of the best guys I ever met, and open and honest guy, and I dont for one minute suggest he was arrogant or aggressive with these kids, but I got him thinking.

I said to him, what would make these kids say these things? And he said, it was because they did not like this boy.

The 15yo had to go on the run, and maybe he is not guilty of it.

I said to this guy, give me a half hour with these kids, and I tell you whether they are telling the truth, and he said, how can you tell?

I said, I can tell him whether or not they are lying, and also said that it is very unusual for a boy to humiliate himself for no good and proper reason, but maybe I am wrong.

BTW, I asked him if he thought MJ was guilty, and he said that the court was given only so much evidence by the prosecution which was weak against counsel that can be bought, so the evidence was not available from past documents.

But, he also said that of what he knows, is that he is indeed guilty, without question or doubt.

If you look at it one way, you have prosecution lawyers employed by the Government, and defence lawyers you can pay for, and the chances are that the defence lawyers are more likely to win.

They have to because they have to make themselves into the best they can be, and earn loads of money, but when you deny life, in the case of MJ, it is tragic.

These kids were named and shamed right across the whole of the states.

If I had to have gone to court, and the perp got away then I dont know where I would be, and it is tragic that these kids were named and shamed.

Imagine being abused and not being believed in a court of law! That was my biggest fear in life, that if I went to court and was disbelieved.

Now these kids carry all this unwanted massive guilt for life, and does Jackson really care what happens to them, nah, he doesnt, nor do the lawyers who protected him from the truth, but their money is from the blood of children, and I hope they can find their conscience, and grieve for their actions.

I think not,

ste

Edited to say that names are protected in courts of those who take their abuser to court, and it is unfortunate that this case was different.

You will not be identified to the press or TV

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#24632 - 08/09/05 10:31 AM Re: getting off
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
STE
Quote:
Imagine being abused and not being believed in a court of law! That was my biggest fear in life, that if I went to court and was disbelieved.
I told on my abuser Father Ryan in 1961 when I was 11 years old. I was talked into not going to the police and letting the church board deal with it. Well they told me my story was unbeleiveable and that was the end of it. One person on the board came up to me afterward.

"TOM I BELEIEVE YOU BUT I HOPE YOU UNDERTSTAND THERE IS NOLTHING I CAN DO."

I AM SURE THAT THINGS ARE DIFFERENT 44 years later and people do know that this shit does happen and will beleieve kids when they come forward. Some Attornays will do anything to make $$$$$$. Hopefully the jurys will see through the bull shit and convict these perps. Tom

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

Top
#24634 - 08/09/05 02:49 PM Re: getting off
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6845
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Tom, nobody should dismiss anything like this that a kid says to them, they should be listened to.
It is totally unbelievable that they could tell you that your story is unbelievable!

I bet that sent you scurrying off to find a place to process what they said. I cant even imagine your emotions at that time, but it must have been huge.

The biggest thing about being male, is that we are not supposed to be emotional beings, and we are so much more emotionally equipped to deal with these things. What bullshit, of course we are!

Kev, if you told them your story, then that is OK, I suppose you should give them the story that you wrote out about what happened to you, because there is nothing they can change in that, because it is the truth, so send them a copy.
Better still, send it through your attorney.

The other thing Kev, is that they have a duty to protect other kids from predators like this guy, and you did the best thing by telling, cos you saved other kids too.

I praise all of your deep courage,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

Top
#24635 - 08/09/05 06:21 PM Re: getting off
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Tom: I remember seeing your story about your case, and I just want to say again how angry it still makes me. I know some people are outraged at the way the press is after the Catholic Church, but if this is what it takes to get justice for all those kids so be it. I'm just glad you are here and can talk to us about it. You were so deviously and cruelly treated - it just staggers me to recall your story, even though I had seen it previously. My sentiments are very much like Ste's. How it must have felt for you then, and even now, I just can't imagine.

Ste: You are so right about us as emotional beings. All that "take it like a man" crap is just that - total crap.

And I also agree with your point about saving other kids. I know that we are all individuals and at the time we were being abused it wasn't always easy or even possible to disclose and get any results. I bet Tom's case was one out of thousands like that. I also understand that not all of us are alike in what we can handle. Our first task is to recover ourselves. Some of us find that in order to do that we need to disclose and take assertive action against those who abused us, others find that just isn't possible.

But be that as it may, Kev should be proud as a peacock that he has done this. I think one other boy was already known to be at risk, and who knows how many others in the future have been saved by his courage.

Kev: Welcome back first of all. I hope the camping trip with your father went well.

I know it will be difficult to keep this case from dominating your thoughts, but just ask all your questions and remember that nothing you ask is stupid. When you talk about a "protection department" you must be referring to a child welfare bureau. The people working directly with you on your case in that department are probably not police officers as such. Their job is to help you, set you at ease in every way they can, and represent your interests as an underaged boy (= not yet 18). Things may get confusing because you find there are a lot of different people involved, but that is because different people are assigned different tasks. If you have any questions or get confused, just ask. If you forget and get confused again, ask again. The people you are talking to want to help you, and it's part of their job to answer your questions and make sure you feel safe.

I know this is easy for me to say, but try not to let all this dominate you - you have lots of cool things going on in your life, and also a lot of work in school soon. Give them the time they need as well.

I understand you feel awkward about crying when you were being interviewed, but look a bit further up at what Ste has just said. It's total bullshit that a boy should not cry about things that hurt him. I am not sure I could have done what you are doing now, and I am absolutely certain I would have cried a river before I got the whole story out. Remember also that you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed about. Like they told you at your interview, the shame all belongs to somebody else - you are just placing it where it belongs.

Take care,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.