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#221653 - 04/30/08 12:49 PM The thing I'm afraid of
dark empathy Offline

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2667
Loc: durham, north england
Again, I'm sorry, but I think if I can get to the point of mentioning this thing, people will have some really helpful comments and things to say about it.

As I said in the jump thread, this is something I'm very frightened of. i adrenalined myself into storming streight at it with my T on Monday, and sinse then I've been pretty much shattered. i was even supposed to go to a rehearsal for my latest production on tuesday, which i ended up making excuses not to go to, sinse I couldn't face interacting with people or working on something then.

I phoned one of my really good friends last night, and we had a conversation about this, which makes me feel I'm perhaps at the point where I can say something.

Enough! prevarication! Here goes.

Okay, my abuse happened in secondary school and the perpetraters were gangs (three upwards of girls). during the proceedings it was made absolutely clear to me that said girls hated me, wanted to hurt me. I was verbally insulted fairly constantly, and experienced physical violence (often I was quite literally held down).

While I didn't get any Sa related stuff from boys, I did have similar insults, and physical violence on a daily basis, but it's what happened with the girls that I'm really finding difficult to deal with.

the thing is, I've always assumed (as I thought at the time), tthat the abuse was pretty much a natural desaster. I don't feel hatred or anger, ---- it would be like being angry at an earthquake. heck, I didn't even know the names of most of the girls involved. At the point this stuff happened, ---- and right up until now, i'd always degraded these people. I remember on science lesson when i'd sworn very loudly at a group of these girls and the teacher had told me sternly that I couldn't say such things to people. my response was to very literally scream "Those! aren't! people!"

that's what I thought, ---- they were none-people, things!

this was fine, and undoubtedly there were a couple involved who were just complete sadists. The problem is, what I'm realizing now, is that sadism and cruelty and desire to hurt weren't all that was involved.

the thing that's absolutely terrifying me is the thought that some of them were in some way interested in me, ---- even if at that age they couldn't express that interest in anything but a sick, perverted, twisted and sadistic way.

I remember times when a couple of them, individually, tried talking to me, said they fancied me, said I was fucking gorgious.

Of course, I always thought this was just more insults, and responded very aggressively myself.

I can deal with being hated, i can deal with non-people, but I can't understand or cope with that idea, ---- the idea that a couple of those girls were in some sense interested in me, perhaps even wanted to become closer in a nice way, ---- even though when they got together in a gang, some weerd metamorphosis happened and they became things!

I just can't handle that idea!

at the same time though, I do know, that the idea of a girl being interested in me is something I not only can't understand, but something which actually frightens me. People say that even though i get on fine with girls, I come across very much as unavailable, as if I'm already married. I have loads of female friends, and have had loads over years, but never a gf, or someone really close.

I remember several occasions with a girl when i'd suddenly start feeling very out of control and afraid, and I know that if a girl ever made it abundently clear that she was interested in me, so clear I couldn't ignore it i'd be very frightened, perhaps defensive.

Only on three occasions have i ever been able to say how i felt about a girl, and on two of those I was absolutely certain nothing would come of it.

I can't give complements on a girl's appearence, or start any other conversation which would indicate I was interested, ---- well up to now anyway.

Is this because that i associate someone being interested in me with being abused? is this one of those defence mechanisms people talk about?

I'm just finding the idea that some of thos things, those non-people had some sort of feelings for me other than hatred and dislike really hard, though at the same time part of me suspects that it's true, and it frightens me! Frightens me a lot!

I know though this is something I'm going to have to deal with, especially if I ever do want that close loving relationship with someone, the desire for which is such agony!

Has anyone got any thoughts on this?

#221697 - 04/30/08 04:12 PM Re: The thing I'm afraid of [Re: dark empathy]
Freedom49 Offline

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 2724
Loc: Washington State
I know that at certain age kids, usually girls start liking boys and this happens usually way befoe it does that boys start liking girsl. When a girl likes a boy and she makes herself vulnerable enough to present herself to a boy and tell him this is a big deal to her and she is very fragile at that point.

Usually this is first displayed in teasing and taunting. Because kids at that age do not know any other way to get the attention of a boy or girl. This often leads the object of their affections to believe just the opposite is true. That this person actually hates me.

That is not usually the case and so misunderstandings begin. When the girl finally gets up the nerve to tell the boy that she really likes him, he is already convinced that she hates him and like you did he will rebuff her.

Girls do not take kindly to being rejected. They will usually seek revenge for their wounded egos and it can indeed be vicious. Do I think these girls my have infact liked you. Yes I do. Problem is the dymamics of girlhood created competition for you within their group.

When one or two approached you and were rejected they realized they could not have you and could not stand their friends to have you either so they all ganged up on you so that no one got you. It really was all about them. Not you at all.

It could have been any boy that several of them liked. If only one had liked you it might have worked out and you would have got on fine. But with the dynamics of the group and several or even all of them liking and wanting you, and you rejecting one or two of them it shamed them in front of their friends and therefore you had to suffer for that humiliation.

Kids..... sigh. We need to teach our kids how to handle approaching someone they like and how to handle it when they are rejected.

My guess is Luke you were a hot dude, and they all wanted you but didn't want anyone else to have you cause that would mean they were rejected and their egos could not take being rejected by such a hot guy. Check with middle school teachers on this if you don't believe me or check with your T.

Take care guy. I would love to see a picture of you at that age I bet I am right and you were really a great looking boy.

your friend

#221763 - 04/30/08 09:31 PM Re: The thing I'm afraid of [Re: Freedom49]
dark empathy Offline

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2667
Loc: durham, north england
roger, I'm finding what you say here really difficult. nobody ever said they liked me or even wanted to start a conversation with me. The most I got on an individual level were really explicite disgusting comments, ---- that they fancied me was about the best, and that only from two girls compared to the huge group which was actively involved in the abuse.

I was so often told I was nothing, was worthless, that I thought I was better than everyone else.

I genuinely and literally had no friends, and the only speech I ever got from anyone, ---- male or female was insults, violence and humiliation. This situation went on solidly and at an increasing rate for four years!

the stupid thing is, from falling in love when I was 9, if any of them had just said they liked me, and not been so insulting I would've at least considdered things. If just like the girl I fell for when I was 9 they could've been friends for a bit that would've been fine!

As I said, the school was in an absolutely abysmal area, ---- drugs, knives pulled on teachers etc.

I'm certain at least a couple just hated me, ---- they said so, but the idea that the ones who said they wanted to xxxx me were interested in some way, ---- and yet could practically rape me, i find absolutely impossible to believe, ---- and yet there's something appropriate now in the way I'm afraid of anyone showing interest in me.

but how! Even at age 12, I never wanted to hurt someone, ---- much less someone I liked that much! I just can't understand how liking or being interested in someone would mean you wanted to hurt them, humiliate them, be physically and verbally violent at them constantly to the point where they were seriously considdering suicide!

I mean, on one occasion I had a used tampon stuffed in my mouth, when i spat it out and started heading for the door, someone tried to stuff it down my trouserss!

How can that equate to being interested in someone?


Stepping back now. I'm really sorry, this thing really does cause me problems. I wish I could just forget about this realization, ---- but i'm rfairly certain this has got in the way of me having a propper relationship with someone, so it's absolutely imperative that I deal with this.

I'm really sorry about going off there.

#221787 - 05/01/08 12:20 AM Re: The thing I'm afraid of [Re: dark empathy]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA

I'm sure Roger doesn't expect an apology from you. This is a difficult issue for you and you need to talk about it. You will eventually find a way through it that works for you, but while you are figuring it out, sure, you are likely to get emotional sometimes. That's okay!

Just looking at what you say in your post, I would think yes, you find it difficult to relate to girls because of what happened to you in abuse. There are a lot of guys who have this problem, especially if the abuser was female.

What often happens is that while the relationship is casual the survivor has no problem; he isn't exposed in any way and there's little risk for him. But once he begins to feel close to a girl, the hurt boy inside him will react and remind him what happened in the past.

For many guys the problem is even more general. Sometimes abuse teaches a boy the false lesson that good things don't come to him, or if they do, they won't last. So the boy stops seeking or expecting good things in his life, and when they appear anyway he feels anxious and afraid, thinking that if he accepts these good things then eventually they will be taken away and he will be even more hurt than before.

On the behavior of these other kids, my first thought is "where were the adults?", but you say the school was a bad one, so probably there was little or no adult supervision. If there had been good adult supervision, one thing they would have done is try to make sure nasty bullying "gangs" don't appear.

Kids can be very vulnerable to a kind of "herd" mentality. Everyone wants to belong, and the worst thing that can happen to a kid is to be seen as "different" and to be excluded. And unfortunately, one thing that does happen is that when the leaders of a gang decide to pick on someone, the others in the group will go along with it so they don't get excluded and bullied themselves. That's not to excuse what these girls did, but perhaps it explains why a girl would treat you badly at one moment, and then the next day say nice things to you.

I'm really sorry all this happened to you, Luke, and I hope talking about it helps.

Much love,

Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

#221815 - 05/01/08 01:25 AM Re: The thing I'm afraid of [Re: roadrunner]
Freedom49 Offline

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 2724
Loc: Washington State
Perhaps I misread something in your post. Larry is right you don't owe me an apology. If I am off base here so be it. I could have misunderstood. I know these dynamics are real in middle schoolers my wife teaches Middle School and sees this kind of thing all the time. In a school that bad and with what Larry says about the pack mentality this could very well have been a very extreme and vicious form of this behavior. It is not unusual for a girl even when she likes someone if she thinks she has been rejected to become vicious towward him, even violent. My wife has seen this and it is not pretty and she has put a stop to it on several occasions only to find out the girl actually liked the guy at one point. Still this my not be the case back in your school. You were smarter and that alone can make you different and a target. Sorry if this was not helpful and I hope I have not caused you any undue stress.

Your friend

#222078 - 05/02/08 05:12 AM Re: The thing I'm afraid of [Re: Freedom49]
dark empathy Offline

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2667
Loc: durham, north england
To be honest roger, it's getting used to the idea that there was some sort of interest there, ---- all be it an aggressive and twisted one. my friend who originally said he'd noticed this agressive behaviour of girls of that age towards someone they liked himself worked as a classroom assistant, ---- and his fiance is a secondary school teacher herself.

Even though my logic is telling me perhaps a couple of the girls were interested, had trouble expressing it, then got swept up in hurd mentality, my immotions just don't agree. Yet at the same time as Larry said, i'm quite fine being friends with girls the same way I'd be friends with boys, ---- in fact I quite literally treat everyone the same. I can't see or understand that anyone would be interested in me, ---- but if it's made abundently clear that someone is, or I feel I'm getting close I start to feel really out of control and afraid.

in fact my very closest female friend, ---- the only girl i can comfortably accept a hug from, is someone who, quite honestly told me at one stage that while she liked me, there was nothing else going on. I said the same thing about her (which is true), and she's now as close as a sister.

this is why I want to deal with this thing.

It's just so much a contradiction, the idea that a couple of those girls, even though on an individual level they only said things I interpreted as hurtful could've been some how interested, and yet participated in what was virtually gang rape. I just can't deal with that idea!

It! hurts!

Every time I go near it I start to become really bothered.

thinking of those girls as just aggressive, non-people, a force of nature, was something easy and something I did for a long time, in fact, my friend says that at the point any group of people start to behave in a herd like that, they are quite literally seacing to be people thus i was right.

but I'm really finding the idea that some of the girls who did this might have been thinking more than just sadism hard, it really hurts, and there's not a lot I can do about it.

What's really hard is that my body was doing things my mind wasn't. i was really frantically trying to put my mind elsewhere, to stop being. Often I felt as if my body was a vehicle I was driving, ---- that I was looking out of my eyes as though through windows, but I did respond physically, even though i was terrified! and this was made a lot of in the abuse.

Once I was standing in line in the school choire, being the only boy soprano at age 13 or 14 I was standing with a lot of girls. When the teacher left the room for a second one of them beside me grabbed my thing hard enough to hurt, called me a horny bastard! asked me if my dick was housetraineed and squeezed. I completely froze. the girl on the other side was just trying to grab my behind when the teacher came back in in time to see me shove their hands off me, and told me to keep stil and stand up streight!

In terms of adult supervision, sinse the school was threatened by closure, a lot of the teacher refused to acknolidge that there was anything bad going on. I remember spending every break trying to find an empty classroom and dodge the teachers sinse they chucked all the pupils outside the school each lunchtime and break so that they didn't need to supervise them, and outside the school building was one of the major places where abuse happened.

When I finally had enough of everything and my parents took me out of school three months before my gcse's, my head of year tried to summon my parents to court for truency, which was a joke sinse half the school skipped off at various points. In the years just after I finished, I was most angry at the teaching staff who permitted all this to take place, ---- in fac the only counceling session i had at age 16 I spent most of being angry about this.

Stepping back now.

I'm sorry about the really rambling thread. this isn't easy.


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