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#188895 - 10/27/07 07:06 AM was it really abuse?
Ilia Offline
New Here

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 1
Hi Everyone,

I may be a survivor, but I am still not sure if what happened classifies as abuse. Maybe someone on this forum can clarify my situation.

When I was about 12-13, I and my one year older brother used to sleep in the same bad. One night before falling asleep he convinced me to play having sex, and he simulated anal penetration. This happened a couple more times in the same time period, as far as I remember.

Now, 20 years later I am not sure what impact those activities had on me. I know that at the time I did not feel bad about the incidents at all -- I simply accepted it, and thought it was normal. At the time I did not feel traumatized, sad, angry, lacking self esteem, or a victim in any way. In fact, in the following years I developed very strong self esteem as I did very well in school.
I was so unconcerned about those early sexual experiences that I even forgot about them, and only recently remembered them while probing into my past.

However, I have developed somewhat extreme sexual patterns -- porn addiction, strip clubs, etc, even while married to a beautiful woman who I love very much. Frankly, I do not understand my sexual behavior, and I am wondering if such early sexual experiences could be the root.

I would appreciate an answer from someone with more experience.


#188916 - 10/27/07 04:21 PM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: Ilia]
River Offline

Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Nashville,Tennessee
You do not necessarily have to "feel bad" or feel trauatized about what happened to you at the time. You were just a kid and thought it was normal. But how do you feel about it now/today? How has it affected you today?


#188918 - 10/27/07 04:24 PM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: River]
saint-of-Lost-Causes Offline

Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 57
Loc: Michigan
Im with River on this one...just because you didn't think about them at the time as bad experiences or whatever...they had an impact on your development....children at that age aren't mentally ready for least in my opinion...they may be physically able and ready but mentally is another story...the consequences of that sort of behavior affects your development....your constantly learning and maturing in those years and the effects will last your life!

We accept the love we think we deserve!

#189102 - 10/29/07 11:08 PM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: saint-of-Lost-Causes]
lostcowboy Offline

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 798
Loc: Rhode Island
Hi Ilia, sounds like you may have a addiction to sex. Patrick Carnes, Ph.D has several books out covering the condition. Two books are, called "In the Shadows of the Net, breaking free of compulsive online sexual behavior, by Patrick Carnes, Ph.D, and David L. Delmonico,Ph.D., and Elizabeth Griffin,M.A. with Joseph M. Moriarity". This book was put out in 2001. "Don't call it love, recovery from sexual addiction by Patrick Carnes,Ph.D." came out in 1991. In both books he talks about using a 12 step program, for recovery. In don't call it love, he says that about 80% of sex addicts have had some type of abuse while growing up, it does not have to be sex abuse. What happen between you and your brother, certainly was strange. Could it be that your brother was abused, to put the idea in to his head?
Hope the books help.
Take care,

Edited by lostcowboy (10/29/07 11:09 PM)
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

#189108 - 10/30/07 12:07 AM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: lostcowboy]
dgoods Offline

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
My best academic performance was in 5th grade(8 A's, 1 B), when Dad and my stepmother at the time were in the process of getting divorced, and life at home sucked. I realize now that i did so well in school because it was a great way to avoid thinking about everything else, plus the usual kid's tendency to think everything's their fault, and if they only do well enough, everything will get better.

Just a thought...

Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

#189155 - 10/30/07 03:16 AM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: dgoods]
youngpadawan Offline
New Here

Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Ohio

Thank you for your post. It's not easy to walk this path. I am very much in your position. Six months ago, I had a wonderful wife, a raging internet addiction, and lots of compulsive sexual behavior. A few years ago, I remembered a situation in which my father molested me (he was later arrested for indecent exposure in front of our neighbors, had a raging internet addiction, molested me), but I never thought it was that bad. He only french kissed me and then had me sleep in his bed while my mother was out of town. Until I turned 30, I covered myself in a nice, safe blanket of denial thinking that what he did was not "bad enough" to be considered incest. As things went on, I began to look at my behavior (much like what you wrote: internet addictions, strip clubs - "for work," of course, etc) and realized that it was all connected.

I am finally, at 30 years old, beginning to piece together what impact his actions have had on my life. I encourage you to read the books by Patrick Carnes mentioned above (I just ordered both of those through Amazon). Also, check out "Victims No Longer" by Mike Lew, "Ghosts in the Bedroom" by Ken Graber, and Courage to Heal (a classic).

The worst thing you can do is assume that what you went through "wasn't that bad." You may want to see a therapist who specializes in sexual issues. That's what I've begun to do as well. It seems to be helping. Good luck!

#189163 - 10/30/07 04:57 AM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: youngpadawan]
Samuel_D Offline
New Here

Registered: 10/30/07
Posts: 16
I agree with the theripist idea. My husband has been seeing her for a while now and it seems to be helping. while he was abused as well. He also had and addiction to porn and strip clubs. he stopped about 4 years ago. He did not like who he was becomeing, and our marriage was on the rocks. It has been a long hard road traveling with him. but he wants to be better. He had to replace those things with something else. You have to clean your mind. And try to "fight urge to feed the monster" that is what my husband would say. He said he felt like a differnt person. He loved me but while doing what he was doing, he told himself it was ok. I never suspected a thing. It was so nice though when he came out and told me everything, he was able to deal with it, and decided that he was happier with out it. Porn only creates needs that can never be met, and it seperates you from reality. If you can get that out of your life, you will feel Like a new man.

#189172 - 10/30/07 06:40 AM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: Samuel_D]
scotia1 Offline

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 81
Hi Ilea,

If it is any help, what happened to you as a child is quite common. Your question is “is it abuse”. Well in legal terms because he was only one year older than you and it was not forced it would probably not be considered abuse by your brother. However, both you and your brother could have been traumatized by these events. My thoughts are that it would have been your parents responsibility to educate their children on what is proper behavior or not. Thus (like all CSA)as far as blame goes I would put it squarely on the adults (your parents). Sexual activity such as this can easily resurface years lather and can be very damaging. You are making a great first step by talking about it. Hopefully this will help to lesson the effect on yourself. Have you talked with your brother about this? He also could be having difficulty with his past.


#189175 - 10/30/07 08:04 AM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: lostcowboy]
cbfull Offline

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Ohio

I'm very sorry that circumstances have brought you here, but I'm glad you found us.

Originally Posted By: lostcowboy
What happen between you and your brother, certainly was strange. Could it be that your brother was abused, to put the idea in to his head?

I'm going to have to agree with lostcowbow here. I think it is safe to assume that at only 1 year apart, your brother should have been roughly about as naive as you were where sexual activity was concerned. He got that idea from somewhere, and kids generally don't come up with the idea to sexualize their own brother all on their own. It kinda sounds like he innocently brought some other kid's sexualization home and transferred it to you.

My brother and I almost sexualized each other at some point, and it was of course after we had both been exposed to the corrupted ideas of our older male babysitter. If it helps you, I can remember sitting in our family room with him, and he was in his briefs which we wore in the early/late hours around the house often. We were both pre-pubescent, he may have been a little further along since he was 2.5 years older. I remember a moment where it seemed that we both had the same idea to possibly sexualize each other at the same time, and noticed that he had an erection. I remember thinking that there was no way I was going to do with my brother what I had been doing with the babersitter, but I did think about it, and I guess I just ran upstairs. The memory does not disturb me in the slightest, I actually sort of knew at the time that he must have got the idea from the babysitter too. This was actually confirmed when I was about 27, when I was having a "nervous breakdown" and I called my brother sobbing asking him if he knew what was going on with the babysitter and I back then. He confided in me that the babysitter "tried some stuff" with him too, and it saddens me a bit to realize that he also got the idea from the babysitter. I haven't felt the need to ask my brother to explain what "tried some stuff" means. The only thing that would matter today is if the memory confused me or disturbed me. On a "damage result" scale of 100, I place that event at 1. My feelings about the memory are actually more sympathetic because it was so incredibly innocent, and I knew what the babysitter was capable of.

If it is hard for you to conceptualize how it could be possible that this could have remained dormant for so long, think about the time travel paradox involving a scientist who goes back to earth's earlier development and unknowingly destroys some prehistoric insect, rodent, or any other organism for that matter. If this were to occur at just the right point in earth's development, and depending on what specific action occurred (which species, exactly how much physical intrusion, etc.), the future he/she knows and understands would likely be irreversibly changed or even destroyed along with it.

The point is that the effect of this would not immediately be known. Any negative impact on the "world" would amplify as the years (millenia in the analogy) roll by. It largely depends on your specific and unique psychological vulnerability, which unfortunately cannot be known until it manifests itself. In your case, what happened seemed "mild" enough to just ignore, but sometimes that does it's own unique damage in addition to "the usual".

That might not have been a very good analogy, but it's the best I could come up with at 3AM.

The fact that it strikes you as an adult as odd, inappropriate, uncomfortable, etc. is all you really need to know to understand that it affected you. Another matter to consider is what kind of porn you are getting caught up in, but please don't feel the need to share that information unless you're comfortable.

I hope you can get something out of all this.



Guilt and shame have never done any of us any good at all.

#189275 - 10/30/07 09:32 PM Re: was it really abuse? [Re: cbfull]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA

When two siblings get involved in sexual play it can pose a very confusing dilemma for them years later, when they look back and try to figure out what actually happened. Many would say what happened to you wasn't abuse because your brother was only a year older. But that would be an overly rigid way to look at it, and the only thing it would settle would be that your brother wasn't legally culpable.

A better way to look at it would be in terms of these questions:

1. Did you feel pressured or uncomfortable when these things happened?
2. Could you have said no without negative consequences (rejection, refusal to play with you or include you in fun things)?

If you weren't being pressured or coerced, then perhaps this was just boyhood experimenting and fooling around. But as others have said, where did your brother get this idea? Boys this young aren't usually sexualized to this extent, and anal activities in particular they shy away from because of the associations with going to the bathroom.

But even if you feel it wasn't abuse, if it troubles you now then you should seek support and help. If you had broken your leg you would seek help, right? Regardless of whether or not someone else was to blame.

Much love,

Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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